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Old 22-04-2019, 10:18   #46
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Susie plans to publish once she’s ready. Really sweet girl. Won’t say anything bad about anyone or any company. We’re guessing that shock loading lead to her JSD loss. Similar to Randolph Reeves Figure 8 JSD loss.

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Old 22-04-2019, 10:20   #47
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Should have added that shock loading is an issue for any drogue or para-anchor. Hence the importance of reducing slack rode as much as possible.
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Old 22-04-2019, 10:48   #48
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Susie plans to publish once she’s ready. Really sweet girl. Won’t say anything bad about anyone or any company. We’re guessing that shock loading lead to her JSD loss. Similar to Randolph Reeves Figure 8 JSD loss.

There is a risk to being out here doing what we are doing. My husband and I just try and do it in the safest possible manner and despite this report I still think a series drogue is an invaluable “insurance” device. There have been far too many positive reports from cruisers to negate the infrequent bad experience.

I guess Susie may be slow to allocate blame for the same reason Morgan’s Cloud put forward a while back for not pouncing on Ace for supply of cones that could only be used once due to thin, unhemmed fabric. A small company that has benefited the general cruising community would go belly up.

SWL
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Old 22-04-2019, 11:13   #49
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
And here is Part Two:

Another great resource from you


Would be great if you would include the method without any knot at all -- the intercollapsed brummel eyes like Evans Starzinger had on his site.


That's my go-to method -- totally simple, and strong, and very fast to make. Slightly less pretty than a nice knot, but not actually ugly.
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Old 22-04-2019, 11:33   #50
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Another great resource from you


Would be great if you would include the method without any knot at all -- the intercollapsed brummel eyes like Evans Starzinger had on his site.


That's my go-to method -- totally simple, and strong, and very fast to make. Slightly less pretty than a nice knot, but not actually ugly.
Evans called this an “Improved” soft shackle. The knot used is actually based on a simple overhand.

This is one of the family of “high strength” soft shackles where the base of the stopper is reinforced with the tails coming back down the base of the stopper and being buried in the legs. A simple toggle with the line looping over it and back down the legs will give the same resulting “high” strength (230% of line strength).

Evans has removed his website and so his pdf with instructions is no longer available, but there are numerous YouTubes detailing the technique.

This is one of them:

https://youtu.be/K0eZz36PRYI

SWL
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Old 22-04-2019, 11:40   #51
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
There is a risk to being out here doing what we are doing. My husband and I just try and do it in the safest possible manner and despite this report I still think a series drogue is an invaluable “insurance” device. There have been far too many positive reports from cruisers to negate the infrequent bad experience.

I guess Susie may be slow to allocate blame for the same reason Morgan’s Cloud put forward a while back for not pouncing on Ace for supply of cones that could only be used once due to thin, unhemmed fabric. A small company that has benefited the general cruising community would go belly up.

SWL

Well, the proximate cause was breaking of the bridle attachment -- if it had been the cones which failed, then this wouldn't have happened.


She was using somewhat undersized nylon, weakened by the use of an inappropriate knot. I don't think you have to be a genius to figure out what happened.


I have broken a fair amount of nylon cordage in my life. It breaks if it is cyclically loaded enough to make it stretch significantly. Apparently (according to Dashew and others) well under its rated break strength.



I don't think you have anything worry about. Did you catch how the loads are far less in a "normal" big storm, compared to a Southern Ocean kind of worst case scenario? Unless you are sailing in crazy places (like doing the GG), I don't think there is any material chance that you will get caught in weather which comes anywhere near the limits of strength of the system. In fact, I think it is highly unlikely you ever even take it out of the locker. As you said, it's a great insurance policy
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Old 22-04-2019, 11:54   #52
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
There is a risk to being out here doing what we are doing. My husband and I just try and do it in the safest possible manner and despite this report I still think a series drogue is an invaluable “insurance” device. There have been far too many positive reports from cruisers to negate the infrequent bad experience.

I guess Susie may be slow to allocate blame for the same reason Morgan’s Cloud put forward a while back for not pouncing on Ace for supply of cones that could only be used once due to thin, unhemmed fabric. A small company that has benefited the general cruising community would go belly up.

SWL

Good preparation keeps sailing one of the more safe past times. Like to add how speed-limiting drogues and para-anchors are also a safe insurance choice with many positive reports from cruisers.



We feel it's personal preference whether a sailor chooses to stop and point their bow or stern into the weather or to keep going.



We asked an expert what they would have done in Susie's situation. Here's what he said, "Because waves were approaching from two different directions, coupled by the severity of the weather, I would forereach first and then deploy a speed-limiting drogue to slow down, not stop the boat..." He added, "always easy to look back at a situation and second guess what's the better choice. Different situation when you're living in the moment."
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Old 22-04-2019, 12:13   #53
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Well, the proximate cause was breaking of the bridle attachment -- if it had been the cones which failed, then this wouldn't have happened.

She was using somewhat undersized nylon, weakened by the use of an inappropriate knot. I don't think you have to be a genius to figure out what happened.


I have broken a fair amount of nylon cordage in my life. It breaks if it is cyclically loaded enough to make it stretch significantly. Apparently (according to Dashew and others) well under its rated break strength.



I don't think you have anything worry about. Did you catch how the loads are far less in a "normal" big storm, compared to a Southern Ocean kind of worst case scenario? Unless you are sailing in crazy places (like doing the GG), I don't think there is any material chance that you will get caught in weather which comes anywhere near the limits of strength of the system. In fact, I think it is highly unlikely you ever even take it out of the locker. As you said, it's a great insurance policy
Yes, that is the reason climbing rope is replaced so quickly. In addition, apparently nylon loses 15% of its strength when wet.

I am surprised nylon was used in the construction of Susie’s drogue. Its stretch characteristics that make it good for snubbers are not ideal for a drogue.

SWL
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Old 22-04-2019, 12:40   #54
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Yes, that is the reason climbing rope is replaced so quickly. In addition, apparently nylon loses 15% of its strength when wet.

I am surprised nylon was used in the construction of Susie’s drogue. Its stretch characteristics that make it good for snubbers are not ideal for a drogue.

SWL

Well, she used it because Ocean Brake made it that way. Nylon is still the standard material. I doubt if she delved into the question of what cordage to use at all.



Ocean Brake even previous to this incident stopped using the Flemish loop attachment, which is some improvement. I think for safety's sake they ought to be more sure that they don't sell drogues which are undersized for the application, especially not to someone who is heading out to do the GG.



Nylon should be ok I guess if it is sized enough to take account of the loss of strength. When it is undersized, the cyclical loading business is worse because it stretches more.



But why? It's highly vulnerable to chafe even if sized well, and weighs a tonne. Nylon double braid and octo is harder to splice than UHMWPE single braid. No way could I even lift my drogue if it were made of nylon -- what kind of risks would that present, trying to deploy it in a crisis? -- and where would I even keep it? It would be massive. It's not even cheaper, as you pointed out further up the thread. I don't see any good reason to use nylon.
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Old 22-04-2019, 12:43   #55
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Yes, that is the reason climbing rope is replaced so quickly. In addition, apparently nylon loses 15% of its strength when wet.

I am surprised nylon was used in the construction of Susie’s drogue. Its stretch characteristics that make it good for snubbers are not ideal for a drogue.

SWL

Nylon can lose up to 40% of its strength when wet. Add shock loading into the system and rode loses another 40 - 50% of its strength. It's mentioned in our youtube video.

Nylon has been the predominant rode recommended and sold by the JSD suppliers. There's nothing wrong with that If you consider using the solutions listed in the Constant Rode Tension program.

FYI: Shock loading is just as likely to occur using a Dyneema or Spectra rode unless you use extra weight. Bottom line, you can use just about any rode as long as the drag device is properly rigged.
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Old 22-04-2019, 13:03   #56
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Well, she used it because Ocean Brake made it that way. Nylon is still the standard material. I doubt if she delved into the question of what cordage to use at all.



Ocean Brake even previous to this incident stopped using the Flemish loop attachment, which is some improvement. I think for safety's sake they ought to be more sure that they don't sell drogues which are undersized for the application, especially not to someone who is heading out to do the GG.



Nylon should be ok I guess if it is sized enough to take account of the loss of strength. When it is undersized, the cyclical loading business is worse because it stretches more.



But why? It's highly vulnerable to chafe even if sized well, and weighs a tonne. Nylon double braid and octo is harder to splice than UHMWPE single braid. No way could I even lift my drogue if it were made of nylon -- what kind of risks would that present, trying to deploy it in a crisis? -- and where would I even keep it? It would be massive. It's not even cheaper, as you pointed out further up the thread. I don't see any good reason to use nylon.
There have been numerous threads over the last couple of years regarding using UHMWPE (such as Dyneema, Spectra, Acera, etc) instead of double braid polyester for series drogues.

The appeal for me was huge: the weight of polyester required for our boat would have been nearly 50 kg. Not an amount I could have handled on my own. Even two up in conditions that necessitate the use of a drogue, getting it out of storage and deploying it on a pitching deck would have been a dangerous task.

I selected Acera as it was not only lightweight (I could lift the entire amount needed with one finger), but it takes up little space, and as a bonus it was actually cheaper than the double braid polyester needed.

For anyone who missed it the first time around, this is the photo I posted on CF the year before last showing the size of the entire bundle of Acera needed for our series drogue. An orange was the easiest thing on hand to indicate scale .

Compared to the cost of Dyneema/Spectra, the latest brands of UHMWPE have now become more affordable and I see a huge increase of usage on cruising yachts will shortly come as a result. Our boat is already bristling with it.

SWL
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Old 22-04-2019, 13:49   #57
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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. . .Compared to the cost of Dyneema/Spectra, the latest brands of UHMWPE have now become more affordable and I see a huge increase of usage on cruising yachts will shortly come as a result. Our boat is already bristling with it.. .

I think the last piece of polyester cordage on my boat is the mainsail furling line, which is in my crosshairs for replacement. Ah, and maybe my twing lines.



However, I wouldn't say we're nearly at price parity yet. Most of this cordage is double braid, and needs to be, and quality racing grade double braid UHMWPE, which is all Dyneema so far, ain't cheap.
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Old 22-04-2019, 16:03   #58
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Susie plans to publish once she’s ready. Really sweet girl. Won’t say anything bad about anyone or any company. We’re guessing that shock loading lead to her JSD loss. Similar to Randolph Reeves Figure 8 JSD loss.

Why are you saying the JSD rode failure was due to shock loading? I have not read anything that indicates that the JSD was not working and in the water at the time the huge following seas picked up her boat.

By shock loading I'm assuming you mean the JSD rode had gone slack somehow and then load came on suddenly onto a slack line? Goodall had the JSD weighted, as I understand it, as per normal deployment so that it hangs down in water during the trough lulls and then gets pulled up through the water column when a wave hits. Isn't that correct?

It seems her rode parted at the flemish eye loop when the big wave put the system under maximum load, but not in a "shock load" manner, as you stated.

So it appears Goodall's JSD rode was was not strong enough & used a knot at the leader bridle loop, and was possibly under specified for her boat displacement, as is well discussed at Morgans Cloud.

I must say, it seems you lose no opportunity to denigrate and cast doubt on the JSD. It is a competitive product for your Shark single element drogue, OK we get that. But in survival sea states it has proved it's worth over and over again, and yes you need to have a rode to handle worst case loads, and you need to reduce chafe for extended periods. Hence the thinking that HMPE rode with cow hitches not thimbles and shackles is the way to go.

You have a good product and the JSD is a good product. I think they are different horses for different courses. I have searched widely for information, and it appears to me the JSD is a better heavy weather to survival sea state strategy, the Shark is better and easier to use as a steering aid for rudder failure, and to slow down a bit in uncomfortable, but not dangerous seas. The weakness of the Shark, IMO while we're at it, is that it may launch out of the wave when max load is applied. Then there certainly WOULD be shock loads applied when it digs in.

Can you refer us to any user case studies or reports of severe storm use ( big breaking seas) using the Shark? I did not see any on your website recently.
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Old 22-04-2019, 16:48   #59
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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I have no excuse for not completing our drogue, having had a thoroughly lazy winter . The attachment of cones is sooooooooo tedious that I have just been delaying it. I got stuck into the project not long before our last ocean passage a few weeks ago.

I was going to cow hitch the Acera sections together, including to the bridle. There have been warnings in the past about using thimbles or shackles for this. The alternative is splicing one eye onto the other. I am undecided.

We have two panama leads at the rear, so the bridle of the drogue will pass through this. There is then a double bollard closeby on each side at the rear. Security is not an issue with it - it is welded not simply to the deck, but to the underlying frame. I plan to simply make an eye splice at the end of the bridle to throw over this. The only shackle will be a Crosby connecting the weight at the end (chain) to the eye splice at the end of the last length of cones.

I read about Susie’s pitchpole and that it occured because of a failure of the JSD. I have not caught up yet precisely why that failure occurred.

SWL
Hi SWL,

You know, as I pushed the send button on my post, I thought to myself, "But hang on, they have that new beast of a Besteaver, so will have serious bollards..." but oops, too late.

I'm wondering if a couple of layers of webbing tube ( tube within tube) on the Acera loops would be good. That would be for the cow hitch loop to loop connections of the JSD sections, as well as your bridle loop for throwing over your stern bollards? That allows the Acera to "work" a bit inside the webbing tube to even further reduce friction?

What do you think about that, or is there a better anti chafe material that you think would last longer?
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Old 22-04-2019, 17:05   #60
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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... That allows the Acera to "work" a bit inside the webbing tube to even further reduce friction....

To eliminate chafe you want zero motion. That is one of the main advantage of interlocking eyes with a cow hitch on a bight. Once it is set, there is no movement.
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