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Old 25-05-2019, 22:49   #541
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Second, is there any benefit to making a Brummel lock eye splice with long bury as opposed to a plain long bury eye splice? I like the idea of the eye being locked when the JSD is not fully loaded or cycling between partial and full loads, or in the case of the bridle legs flopping around unloaded. Does the use of the Brummel lock mean that the splice bury does not need to be lock stitched? Are there any negatives to making a Brummel eye splice? Of course, making a Brummel lock with only one free end means inverting the Brummel holes - I’m not sure if that’s possible with larger diameters. Also not sure that a spliced eye will fit through a hole. So it may not even be possible, sigh.
There is apparently a small loss of strength with a Brummel lock compared to lock stitching. In this application I think I would add a couple of lock stitches at the insertion point of the bury anyway, so I figure I may as well lock stitch properly instead. Acera is dead easy to lock stitch without piercing the strands, as the needle just seems to slide between the coated strands. I always found that painstakingly slow with dyneema.

Inverting the hole for a Brummel lock made with only one free end is no problem with bigger diameters though. I did this with 14 mm Acera for the portion of our snubber that goes over the bow with no difficulty.

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Finally, the joy of attaching six tapes per cone to the rode for 156 cones. I understand the recommendation for Acera is to send the tape through from one side, then back through to the original side, then knotted (figure 8?) to keep it from sliding through. Correct?
I passed the tape through twice. I winged it with the stopper though. To create an even opening, the knot needs to be very precisely located and I found I could not do this easily with a figure 8. So I simply tied an overhand and then another overhand over the top of it. Not very elegant, but functional.

SWL
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 26-05-2019, 13:06   #542
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Even Samson Amsteel is already roughly the same price as Samson double braid polyester, strength for strength.
T
These new brands emerging (certainly not what is often referred to as “cheap and nasty eBay UHMWPE”) are less than half the price of this.

This suddenly makes UHMWPE an absolute bargain. Due to its slippery, low stretch nature it cannot always substitute polyester, but it had many characteristics that are more favourable - strength for strength its weight and volume are dramatically lower, its UV resistance is higher, it floats, etc. It is also super easy to work with eg creating eye splices.

I did a quick comparison of price:

Amsteel Blue 1/4"
Breaking strain 7700 lbs = 3492 kg
$1.07 / ft = $3.51 / m

Samson EQ Braid Double Braid Polyester Yacht Rope 1/2"
Breaking strain 8300 lb = 3764 kg
$1 / ft = $3.28 / m


Acera Amundsen 6 mm = 1/4”
Breaking strain 3770 kg = 8311 lb
€1.44 / m (price I paid last year in the Netherlands)
= $1.62 / m


Have a hunt in your local fishing chandlery. I found both Acera Amundsen and Stealth Super-12 this way. The yachting market is small fry compared to the fishing and shipping industries and you can pick up good quality (if not superior) rope at bargain prices away from the yachting scene.

SWL
Hi swl, at which stores did you find the acera and stealth in the netherlands?
I checked the CIV, but could not find it. Thx
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Old 26-05-2019, 16:13   #543
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Hi swl, at which stores did you find the acera and stealth in the netherlands?
I checked the CIV, but could not find it. Thx
It was CIV in Harlingen. It was only early April that I bought the Stealth Super-12 there. Their stocks do come and go.

If you can’t order it through them, Fxykty found Acera online in Denmark:
Greenline Fishing Gear - Home

Real_goat found YSM-Aero online in Poland. It has exactly the same MBS as Acera over a range of diameters, which I don’t think is conincidental and it has the same slightly golden colour that Acera’s coating imparts. The price is excellent (eg €1.49 for 6mm and €2.41 for 8 mm includes tax):
Greenline Fishing Gear - Home

Edited to add: correct link:
https://linysyntetyczne.pl/hmpe-ropes

SWL
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Old 26-05-2019, 18:21   #544
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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I use wire type fids almost exclusively. I purchased a set of three “needle” style fids from the Dusseldorf boat show a few years ago and have never looked back. The principle can be easily reproduced simply by bending some SS wire in half and twirling the raw ends around a bit of timber to act as a handle. I have done this with some very thin wire to work with 3 mm single braid.



Retrospectively, I wouldn’t bother buying any fids knowing how well this simple system works.



When burying the tails of soft shackles I can get much closer to the base of the stopper with a wire fid than a Selma one. They also work much better for splicing double braid polyester. The only thing I use my Selma fids for now is when I am passing one bit of braid perpendicularly through another (eg when creating an eye).



This is what a “needle” fid looks like. I now taper the tail before threading it through the eye, as it then buries very smoothly:

I’ve jury rigged double wire fids out of wire coat hangers but I found with the 8mm coated Dyneema, which is pretty stiff when unworked, the doubled over bulk in the eye of the fid is way too big. How do you handle that? Is tapering enough?
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Old 26-05-2019, 18:27   #545
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
It was CIV in Harlingen. It was only early April that I bought the Stealth Super-12 there. Their stocks do come and go.



If you can’t order it through them, Fxykty found Acera online in Denmark:

Greenline Fishing Gear - Home



Real_goat found YSM-Aero online in Poland. It has exactly the same MBS as Acera over a range of diameters, which I don’t think is conincidental and it has the same slightly golden colour that Acera’s coating imparts. The price is excellent (eg €1.49 for 6mm and €2.41 for 8 mm includes tax):

Greenline Fishing Gear - Home



SWL

Your second URL was probably meant to be https://linysyntetyczne.pl/hmpe-ropes. Decent prices on par with what Greenline quoted me ex-tax €2.08 for 8mm, €2.78 for 10mm, €3.72 for 12mm.

But two things about that site are problems: no information about strand/rope coating and no 12mm (which I needed for the JSD I’m building).
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Old 26-05-2019, 18:51   #546
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
...Acera is dead easy to lock stitch without piercing the strands, as the needle just seems to slide between the coated strands. I always found that painstakingly slow with dyneema....

SWL

I know this one!!


I keep several large gauge needlepoint needles in my splicing kit; the tips are rounded, to prevent them from cutting and to help them glide through the holes. As such, you can lock stitch without slicing threads.
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Old 26-05-2019, 20:53   #547
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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I know this one!!


I keep several large gauge needlepoint needles in my splicing kit; the tips are rounded, to prevent them from cutting and to help them glide through the holes. As such, you can lock stitch without slicing threads.

Since the lock stitching thread should be the same size as a strand of the rope you’re stitching, is it best for me to save strands that I remove for tapering to use for lock stitching?
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Old 26-05-2019, 22:50   #548
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I use wire type fids almost exclusively. I purchased a set of three “needle” style fids from the Dusseldorf boat show a few years ago and have never looked back. The principle can be easily reproduced simply by bending some SS wire in half and twirling the raw ends around a bit of timber to act as a handle. I have done this with some very thin wire to work with 3 mm single braid.
I've shown mine before


Made from 1.6mm "binding wire" aka "tie wire"


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Old 27-05-2019, 01:21   #549
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
I’ve jury rigged double wire fids out of wire coat hangers but I found with the 8mm coated Dyneema, which is pretty stiff when unworked, the doubled over bulk in the eye of the fid is way too big. How do you handle that? Is tapering enough?
I find tapering works well. The bit that is doubled over is in the middle of the tapered portion, so it ends up not much thicker than line diameter. You don’t need to double over all the strands, the loose ones just follow through with the others. Previously I would double them all over, flatten the bend and taper only the very end, but I have found burying after a full taper works even more smoothly.

Also, I would select wire thinner than coat hanger wire, as that adds unnecessary bulk. See Stu’s photo for a good example.

SWL
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Old 27-05-2019, 02:29   #550
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I've shown mine before


Made from 1.6mm "binding wire" aka "tie wire"



Nice!!


Why did I pay £50 for a D-Splicer? And the needles all broken already?


I should have known better after half a lifetime of using home-made fids.




Would this be too small, do you reckon?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/RacePro%C2%...ateway&sr=8-16
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Old 27-05-2019, 10:17   #551
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

The D-splicers work great for me but I don't splice 16mm and think a piece of wire used like StuM shows above works just as well and better for big diameters.

But there's more: like someone said it gets tougher for big diameters with the bulk of the folded over end that needs to be pulled through. The solution is a soft-fid. You make these yourself as it's just a length of outer braid. You splice it "the wrong way", i.e. with the D-splicer you pull it towards to end that needs to be spliced in and come out right where that tail needs to go in. After tapering the tail, you stick it into the outer braid and pull it through without any fiber bending around at all The outer braid holds onto thew tail as it restricts it.
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Old 27-05-2019, 16:20   #552
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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But there's more: like someone said it gets tougher for big diameters with the bulk of the folded over end that needs to be pulled through. The solution is a soft-fid. You make these yourself as it's just a length of outer braid. You splice it "the wrong way", i.e. with the D-splicer you pull it towards to end that needs to be spliced in and come out right where that tail needs to go in. After tapering the tail, you stick it into the outer braid and pull it through without any fiber bending around at all The outer braid holds onto thew tail as it restricts it.

Nigel1 introduced me to the concept of soft fids. I use them a little differently to you though:

Splice some 2 or 3 mm single braid dyneema onto larger diameter outer braid (this is permanent).
Insert the wire fid the usual way and thread through the thin dyneema.
When you pull it through the larger outer braid follows.
Use any kind of fid to bury whatever it is you want to pull through, first pulling it out of the the double braid, tapering the end a bit then letting it slide back into the outer braid.
Then just pull on the thin dyneema and the whole lot slides though.

I have never needed to use this technique splicing single braid dyneema though. I haven’t found larger diameters any harder (although 14mm has been my maximum). The tails may be thicker, but the hollow core is correspondingly larger as well. If the tail is fully tapered first (1/3 of its length), it slides though like a hot knife through butter .

SWL
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Old 27-05-2019, 17:09   #553
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

for use of a puller line in big line splicing - see starting about 7:40 here (simple approach, but not super 'clever')
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Old 27-05-2019, 17:31   #554
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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for use of a puller line in big line splicing - see starting about 7:40 here (simple approach, but not super 'clever')
Fascinating technique! Thanks for the link.

I wonder why they don’t bury the reduced tails rather than taping them though? It would not be much extra work and it would create a seamless finish with nothing sticking out that could snag.

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Old 03-06-2019, 19:55   #555
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

I’ve read just recently that Brummel locks on an eye splice reduce the strength of the splice more than a plain bury eye splice. Is this correct?

Due to possible unloaded movement in the bridle legs in particular and their connections to the boat and to the leader I’m thinking that a Brummel lock eye splice, plus a full 72x bury, is the best protection against those eye splices opening up.

Or is just lock stitching enough and no reason to bother with a Brummel lock?
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