Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-04-2019, 11:56   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Becalmed in the Med
Boat: Prout Snowgoose 35
Posts: 953
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Looks good. It’s nice that you have a locker deep enough to store ropes vertically. I don’t have that so mine lie in a spaghetti mess.
__________________

mikedefieslife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2019, 12:29   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,039
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Hi SWL,

Just a request, could you please put your excellent series of instruction posts with photos of your button knot and various soft shackle iterations into this sticky. Its a great resource and better to find it.👍


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2019, 16:24   #18
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedefieslife View Post
Looks good. It’s nice that you have a locker deep enough to store ropes vertically. I don’t have that so mine lie in a spaghetti mess.
It does feel like a luxury to have this space. On our last boat the rear lockers were very deep, but small, so although some of the rope was hitched to a horizontal rope at the top, most of the excess rope was just dumped, making access a nightmare.
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2019, 16:40   #19
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Hi SWL,

Just a request, could you please put your excellent series of instruction posts with photos of your button knot and various soft shackle iterations into this sticky. Its a great resource and better to find it.👍
I will polish off a pdf that is nearly completed and post it tomorrow .

When I have some free time this summer I will also put together a pdf with instructions for the “Bullseye” weave I created (as in my avatar). I have found this invaluable for snuggly securing low friction rings without the tearing forces usually associated with capturing these rings. The weave can also be incorporated in a soft shackle, which I have found very useful on board. It can also connect two or more rings together. With a bit of manoevering the rings are still subsequently removable. The weave is easy to tie and a neat solution to securing LF rings.

SWL
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2019, 19:05   #20
Registered User
 
GeoPowers's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Gulfport, MS
Boat: Beneteau 393
Posts: 950
Images: 27
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

A cow hitch! Duh! We’ve been using soft shackles to stow lines on our arch. A cow hitch would make it much easier to execute.
GeoPowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2019, 22:11   #21
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
A cow hitch! Duh! We’ve been using soft shackles to stow lines on our arch. A cow hitch would make it much easier to execute.
The soft shackles need to be made about twice as long as usual to allow for the cow hitch and also so that the coil can be comfortably supported by gripping the stopper end of the shackle while the noose is loosened. If the load is on the noose end I can guarantee you will swear loudly while tying to slip the noose off .

Our boat is bristling with soft shackles used for line storage, mainly coiled ends of line that are in use in the cockpit and at the mast. The professional photographer KM commissioned used a couple of photos of these in his collection:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	085E13D5-664F-451B-8006-DDD855B43E68.jpg
Views:	239
Size:	416.5 KB
ID:	190185   Click image for larger version

Name:	D66FEFCD-435F-4861-B21E-61AB24DA2999.jpg
Views:	241
Size:	412.9 KB
ID:	190186  

__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2019, 09:09   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: 1980 Pacific International Marine 41.5
Posts: 328
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The soft shackles need to be made about twice as long as usual to allow for the cow hitch and also so that the coil can be comfortably supported by gripping the stopper end of the shackle while the noose is loosened. If the load is on the noose end I can guarantee you will swear loudly while tying to slip the noose off .

Our boat is bristling with soft shackles used for line storage, mainly coiled ends of line that are in use in the cockpit and at the mast. The professional photographer KM commissioned used a couple of photos of these in his collection:
I was going to say those photos are definitely not just quick snaps! Great looking shots and knots!

Definitely looking forward your pdf! I have 0 soft shackles and want to change that!
chowdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2019, 09:57   #23
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
I was going to say those photos are definitely not just quick snaps! Great looking shots and knots!

Definitely looking forward your pdf! I have 0 soft shackles and want to change that!
When Brion Toss first came up with the Button stopper, Allen Edwards (of L-36 fame) who collaborated with him on the final design of the entire shackle commented that it "is a bitch to figure out". I think my instructions clarify the process, but it is still a complex knot to tie.

If you have not made any soft shackles previously, a good spot to start is probably to make a few using a simple Diamond stopper. I have posted instructions here for how to easily form the Diamond stopper itself:
How to tie a Diamond Knot

The rest of the construction is basically the same as for the High Strength soft shackle, except there are no legs to bury. Also the lack of bury means I would then make the size of the noose capable of holding 4 lots of line instead of 8 lots.

There are lots of YouTube videos that can also help visualise the process.

Have fun learning. It is very satisfying being able to make these and with care you are likely to produce soft shackles superior to most of those available commercially.

SWL

PS I am just in the process of trying to compile the promised pdf. It is frustratingly too large to attach here as one document, so I am now dividing it into two files.
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2019, 10:54   #24
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Hi SWL,

Just a request, could you please put your excellent series of instruction posts with photos of your button knot and various soft shackle iterations into this sticky. Its a great resource and better to find it.👍
I have put together a couple of pdfs with instructions for both Brion Toss’s Button stopper and for a “High Strength” soft shackle using this stopper. Breaking strain of the shackle is about 230% of the line itself if a bit of care is taken making it.

This is Part One:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PART 1 High strength soft shackle construction.pdf (1.77 MB, 250 views)
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2019, 10:56   #25
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,659
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

And here is Part Two:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PART 2 High strength soft shackle construction.pdf (1.71 MB, 267 views)
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2019, 13:18   #26
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport Beach, California
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 35
Posts: 122
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Nice! I'll grab some of that if I see it.


One thing I've learned from working with UHMWP single braid over the years is that the coating is extremely important. Uncoated Dyneema frizzes and fluffs, which is very bad. I think the coating also helps the splices to stick together properly. The coating on the Acera Amundsen is excellent -- for me, just the right stiffness and stickiness, not too much, not too little.



Your correct. Additionally, the coating for UHMWP is needed to protect against sun damage and chafe. It also removes the slippery nature of UHMWP. Tough working with slippery rope or fabric.
Fi2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2019, 13:31   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: 1980 Pacific International Marine 41.5
Posts: 328
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

There are a few sources on amazon for UHMWP.

Has anyone tested these products? I'm looking to pick up a small spool to play around and learn new knots/splices. It doesn't seem the Southern Rope Stealth 12 is available in the USA.

I could always purchase one or two different brands off Amazon and return the lesser quality one if need be(one that closely matches the description of the Stealth 12).
chowdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2019, 17:27   #28
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport Beach, California
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 35
Posts: 122
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

What makes UHMWPE and HDPE light in weight and strong is the heating process to line up the molecules in polyethylene. How strong depends on how much a manufacturer of rope fiber wants to cook the polyethylene fibers. There’s different levels of quality.

The quality of fiber purchased (cheap vs. expensive) and how a rope manufacturer chooses to weave their rope will impact its strength. What you might not know is the rope manufacturer can set their machines to change the thread count in their rope to make it stronger or weaker. They usually don’t publish this information. We only know about the process after it was shown to us at a rope factory.

The type of coating on rope can also enhance rope strength. Dependent on use, rope coatings can cause problems in drag device manufacturing, but is usually not an issue for sailors using the rope for a different purpose.

AmSteel Blue, EverSteel X, or Neutron 12 by Sampson rope are good options to Stealth 12 Chowdan. Pelican and New England ropes will also have similar ropes, but under different trade names.

Stealth 12, AmSteel Blue, Dyneema, Spectra are only trade names for UHMWPE and HDPE which are similar fibers. If you’re trying to make a comparison check out the ingredients and weave of the rope to help make a decision. What your specific use is for the rope will also matter. All these ropes are excellent, but price might inevitably be the decision maker for you.

Fi2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2019, 18:09   #29
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 6,170
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

DSM is manufacturing UHMPE in China.



https://www.compositesworld.com/news...turer-in-china


And there are others. While I would stay with a name brand for anything critical, there are many applications for strong rope, and I think the time is near where UHMPE will become the cheapest fiber on a strength bases. In many cases, it is already there. I've tested some really cheap products and generally been impressed; they are often slightly weaker than Amsteel, for example, but they met the claimed specs and were cheap in terms of $/pound-strength.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2019, 18:50   #30
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport Beach, California
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 35
Posts: 122
Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

We always bug our research expert for technical data, because of his offshore experience deploying drag devices. Our expert has a lot of associates in the marine industry so he forward an e-mail from Bruce Brown. Brown is a U.S. Sailing, Safety at Sea Moderator. Brown happens to be an expert on everything rope. Here’s what he wrote.

“HMPWE is not all equal.

There are multiple manufacturers of the fiber now – we find some are standing up to the performance level of Dyneema from DSM, many do not.
Even within DSM – the Dyneema products perform differently. Their SK75 fiber is wonderful – but it does exhibit creep. SK78 reduces creep with the same strength rating of SK75. DM20 is a nearly zero creep fiber without the need to heat set.

Heat setting HMPWE reduces life – abrasion resistance suffers as well as fatigue resistance. Naturally if you make something stiffer – it does not bend well when put in tension.

So depending on the application – the engineering of the fiber orientation and the fiber selection as well as the coating put on the fiber makes a difference in performance.

So, we would ask:
What is the application?
What hardware will be used to control the line? (Winch types and size)
What hardware elements might affect the performance of the line (hawsers, bollards, bits etc)
Is chafe a potential issue in the application?

The Stealth 12 from Southern Ropes is designed to combat Dynux Dux. The Dux was one of the first products where heat setting was used to increase strength and decrease “creep” in the line due to the fibers used in the line.
There are ways to eliminate “creep” (elongation under constant load over time) with a different version of HMPWE.

If creep is a potential issue, Sampson has HMPWE lines that do not creep.
Creep is seen in standing rigging applications (replacing shrouds) and halyards on bigger boats (where the runs can be 100”). 0.5% creep on 100’ of line is half a foot!

So Samson can offer products that match up strength wise with the Southern Ropes products.
We can issue certification of compliance (the line is as strong as we say it is) if that helps your project.”

__________________

Fi2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red Mode / Night Mode on iPad DaveWaltersAus Navigation 35 25-07-2017 17:12
Icom M-802 "Open Mode" (Open/Ham/Dial vs. Standard "marine mode") ka4wja Marine Electronics 0 03-11-2014 06:25
Switching from Liveaboard Mode to Sailing Mode Justin R. Liveaboard's Forum 8 07-02-2012 17:31
Stealth Lobster Boats sailorboy1 Off Topic Forum 10 26-08-2011 09:11
Stealth Sailing anotherT34C General Sailing Forum 36 17-11-2009 05:07



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.