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**skipmac** · 10-08-2009, 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by svquest2

skipmac your plan is okay but to correct somethings you said I would point out that a traveler is still a traveler whether it is a pipe or a track. A pipe or rod traveler is just the old technology. You do have a self tending staysail but it is not self trimming because the tack is too close to the staysail stay. Thus the foot of the staysail is fixed. If the gooseneck was further aft, the clew as controlled by the end of the staysail boom would move toward or away from the tack with easing or trimming, and thus changing the curve of the sail.

Good luck

Joe S

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the clarification. Thinking about the geometry of my setup that makes sense. So I'm not self trimming. Did you ever find the percentage setback that is required to make the staysail self trimming? I am guessing something like 15-25%.

There was one difference I was thinking about in the old pipe travelor vs the new track version. My sheet rides in a car on the track so the sheeting angle can be slightly adjusted whereas the pipe traveler runs out to the ends with no control.

Also, do you know the name of the line that unfurls my roller furling staysail? Regular jibs use the sheet to pull out the sail but with the club boom it's different. On the staysail this line only pulls out the tack of the sail and goes to a pulley on an adjustable outhaul that is on the club boom. The sheet is attached to the end of the club boom. I guess this line could be considered part of the outhaul system but there must be a name for it.

Southern Star · 10-08-2009, 06:20

My current staysail is on furling and is not club-footed; the one on my last boat was club footed and hank-on. I can say that I preferred the former for the following reasons:

1. As already mentioned, it makes the sail self-tacking. This can be a HUGE advantage when sailing short-handed in the heavy conditions for which the sail is intended.

2. Without a barber-hauler, I am unable on my current boat to sheet the staysail in very flat. This is true, I suspect, of many boats and is a distinct disadvantage in a sail designed, once again, for use in heavy air.

I would far rather have a storm sail that can be readilly sheeted in taut than one that carries better shape in reaching conditions. Indeed, in my experience, by using a curved sail track with sheeting that is about 2/3 of the way back on the boom, sail shape can be maintained over pretty wide angles. Remember, the typical staysail has a rather short foot and the track will be mounted at a point where the boat has virtually its maximum beam.

Brad

svquest2 · 11-08-2009, 15:16

skipmac, I'm sorry I don't remember the % setback for the gooseneck. I was the marine products engineer for Merriman and designed things like that, but I left them way back in 1968. I would think that 10% to 15% would be closer, but my mind is blank on the number. I also don't know the proper name for the "unfurling line" unless that's it. We didn't furl staysails back then.

Good luck

Joe S

Cheechako · 11-08-2009, 16:07

The only thing I will say about a boom for the stay sail is it allows you to sheet the sail properly. All my staysails have not had the boom. The problem is you have a short staysail fairlead track that is well inboard and it's hard to get your sail pulling properly and exceedingly hard to adjust the fairlead block with the wind piping 35 apparant. I ended up with a set of permanent barber hauler arrangements so that I could lead the staysail clew outboard and adjust in and out with the sheet or barber hauler. It worked but obstructed the sidedeck walkway except dead to weather and still didnt get the fore/aft lead adjustment real well. If you dont really need the foredeck room, I could see where having a stay boom would be nice once it was set up well.... essentially you can adjust the boom athwartships and adjust the outhaul for flatness etc right? Very nice in a blow. I have also seen very tidy ships with the sail stowed on the boom with a mainsail style cover... low windage etc...

Curmudgeon · 12-08-2009, 14:34

I would like to have a hanked-on, loose footed (no boom) but self-tending staysail-- like the jib on a Soling. You would need some sort of radiused track. Does anyone sell the requisite gear?

Cheechako · 12-08-2009, 15:37

i would envision the track having to go out beyond the coach roof for reaching..... otherwise the sail ends being choked off at the clew depowering it... I suppose another option to a boom would be roller furling.... then you could furl a few inches to adjust the lead point...

Curmudgeon · 13-08-2009, 06:21

I don't want roller furling because I want the ability to hank on a storm sail. Why couldn't the sheets attached to the track be adjustable? Once the sail flops over to the right side it could be trimmed easily. Am I missing something?

Cheechako · 13-08-2009, 09:05

The problem I've run into is you need to be able to adjust the fairlead fore and aft as well as athwartships to get the small staysail to sheet correctly. It's critical with that little sail in order to make it power the boat. A good staysail and a double reef main are amazing, I've had some of my best sails ever in rough weather with that combo. If you are beating into 30 knots, the staysail is very flat and sheeted well inboard... fairlead block probably within 1.5ft of the mast base or so. If you visualize being on a reach with that same fairlead, the clew of the sail is curved toward the boat center line and choking off the power of the sail. As mentioned previously you can use a barber hauler on each side of the boat to the toerail and pull the clew out and continueing to use the sheet also. Of course the fairlead block needs to be adjusted also for reaching.... so it gets complicated... especially when you tack! A boom seems to eliminate all this. FOr your 28 ft devlin, I would think a good staysail /stormsail could be one in the same. Also have you considered an inner stay that goes to the same tack point as the headsail, but lower on the mast at the top? This works great even on some larger boats.

imagine2frolic · 13-08-2009, 09:23

You might want to consider adding tracks for the clew adjustments. If you decide to do away with the boom. As Paul says they come into their own when it's a gale. You can see our tracks on top of the house. Next to the hatch, and they are pretty when set.......i2f

Curmudgeon · 13-08-2009, 09:29

I still don't see the problem, probably due to my inexperience. I understand that the issue is keeping a correctly configured "slot" between the staysail and the main. But my staysail is 97 square feet with a relatively short foot. The clew doesn't have to travel that far to open up the slot.

I keep the fairlead blocks for the staysail sheets fairly forward anyway, since in light air the staysail doesn't really add much to the genny.

imagine2frolic · 13-08-2009, 09:41

The staysail doen't add much at all. When you say your inexperienced. Does that mean you haven't sailed gale force winds? They come into play when the headsail is disposed of. When you are in 30+ knots of wind some adjustments will be wanted......i2f

Eleven · 13-08-2009, 09:53

Interesting thread because I'm playing a similar game with my staysail on my Cat.
I now have it self tacking on a rod track that does allow reasonable shape while tacking in under twenty kts. That sheet is 'tied' to a sliding quick release and some extra cordage allows the sheet angle to be dragged out wider for reaching/running. This is usually for longer runs and can be adjusted to self tacking mode before changing heading.
I also gull wing the stay sail opposite to the main and Genoa to give a more stable and forgiving sail set straight downwind as the stay collects the spill from the main and throws it into the Genoa which keep that filled nicely.
The Needles main channel always seems to be dead down wind as I come in.
First change is that by choice I would have the foot cut higher for better visibilty under the sail, and if it was roller reefed too I would never have to leave the cockpit at sea. It would also set better in stronger winds as it's hard to get enough haliard tension. Not a problem for you if you are on the mast track.
For me the stay is first up, last down. Not too big to be overcome by the engine but still useful on half hour river runs I have to do.
I'm somewhat confused by 'boom on the staysail sweeping the fore deck'. Is this a fore staysail or a main staysail? Personally by risk assessment alone I'd want booms above head height wherever they are. It might hit someone you like!!!
Lovely boat by the way.

Curmudgeon · 13-08-2009, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

The staysail doen't add much at all. When you say your inexperienced. Does that mean you haven't sailed gale force winds? They come into play when the headsail is disposed of. When you are in 30+ knots of wind some adjustments will be wanted......i2f

I've never sailed in force 8 or more, but that's not the issue.

At present I do not even think about raising the staysail until I have a reef in the main. I reef when the gusts start to reach 18-20, depending on the sea state. Dealing with the extra staysail sheets is a PITA when I'm by myself.

I want to be able to raise the staysail and forget about it until the wind pipes up. Then the sequence would be (1) reef the main and partially roll in the jenny, (2) roll up the genny completely and sail with staysail and reefed main, and (3) put a second reef in the main (on my boat it's a deep reef). If that's not enough, then I would probably just heave to with my trysail and storm jib.