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Old 27-10-2012, 05:49   #16
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Hey Guys, we are talking about wire sizes for a 24 foot boat, which is pretty small stuff. There were pull tests done on 1by 19 wire useing nico press and it came out almost the same as swedges. I agree that thicker wire wont bend around a thimble, but we are not talking about a 40 foot boat. I like Norsman and staylock, but they are not needed for a 24 foot boat. Let the arguments begin!______Grant.
No argument here! I would accept Nicopress use for a 24' boat used for weather aware cruising about the Maine bays and islands.
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Old 27-10-2012, 07:33   #17
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

He wasn't talking about the thickness of the wire. 1x19 wire is too stiff to go smoothly around a thimble. It will seperate and most likely crimp also.
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Old 27-10-2012, 07:56   #18
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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If you are going to keep the boat rerig it yourself with Norseman/StaLok terminals. Won't cost you anymore than having a rigger make up swaged wires and way cheaper than having a rigger come down and do it. Defender has the terminals and wire if you can't find a better deal.

Highly reccomend pulling the chainplates and inspecting. Masts go over the side from chainplate failure as much as swage or wire failiure.
BIG 10-4 on both of these items. We have 3/4" shrouds, fore and back-stays. All have Norseman termanals. The termanals at the lower end were installed under the PO by packing solid with 3M 5200 before setting in order to keep out the salt. I have re-set a couple including the forestay. We also have smaller Norseman fittings on the Mizzen stays and lifelines. Get spare fittings and ferrels. You can make up stays yourself this way. If you have stays made, go outside to a commercial rigger such as FD LAKE or other. You can buy 316L SS cable of the proper configuration without going through a marina of West Marine. You may need the top ends or some of the others made for you in order to fit the toggles.

Our main chain plates (1984) were removed this spring. All 4 were suffering tiny microcracks just below the top of the deck, inside where it would never be seen. Even removed, I had to polish the SS to reveal the cracks. I replaced all with Grade 5 Titanium. Photos of plates here Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

Another item to critically inspect is the rudder. Ours was a mushy mess. I had to re-build it totally.

This fall we pulled the prop shaft and found corrosion of the surface in the stuffing box and errosion at the cutlass bearing. Cutlass bearing turned out to be bad too. Shaft is in the shop now for a re-build by plasma flame spray and re-grind to size.
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Old 27-10-2012, 08:25   #19
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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Nico press sleaves are a terrible idea for standing rigging. It's absolutely the wrong part for the job.
WHY????? This picture below was the original upper shroud for my Alberg 30. You can see the mast tang on it. It is 1/4" 1/19 304 stainless wire. 41 yrs old. So why is the niconthe wrong part again?

I replaced all the rigging with all with sta-lok fitting this past winter. But nicos lasted 41 yrs, there is another Alberg on my dock ,1970, and it has all nico fittings at the top now. Still going strong. I was out in Pittsburg, CA a few months ago and saw another alberg with the same seup....seems to work on Alberg 30. Whitby Boats thought it was good enough....so I wonder what is your reasoning?

I replaced mine with sta-locs because I do not have a press and wanted to be able to replace/repair my rig while at sea.

To the OP nice Bristol 24. I used Rigging only, great people, great prices. I would give them a shout and let them help you. FYI, it cost me 1700 for all fittings, including turnbuckles and wire to rerig my Alberg. I assume your boat would be less. And it too me a few week nights to fabricate the new shrouds and stays. Good Luck
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Old 27-10-2012, 08:48   #20
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Over the winter, I intend to remove all the hardware, ports, and wood of the top sides in preperation for painting her in the spring.

Everything will be rebedded - I will try to inspect all. I imagine, though, that I'll be posting for some input on things.

I feel confident in making strong connections with my hydraulic crimper, even if it is for electrical connections. I would think that a crimped connection on a steel cable would be easier than on soft copper. The crimper is a pretty serious tool.

What do you think about synthetic lines? Someone posted about them and I have no experience with them.
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Old 27-10-2012, 09:42   #21
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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Old 27-10-2012, 09:42   #22
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

Cruiser,

Is it enough that Nico says they shouldn't be used as end fittings? And that they specifically say not to use them for sailboat rigging?

There are some major structual problems as well:

1) Nico's don't grab 1x19 well, so you either have to accept a significant loss in efficiency, or change to 6x or 7x which changes shroud stretch negatively. So you need to go up in strength.

2) the only way to get full strength is to double them, but then you have a problem of getting equal preassure on each fitting. If it isn't exact you have created a hard failure point

3) 1x19 is reluctant to go around thimbles, and the right size thimbles are both expensive and pretty rediculous. You have to go to 40 times diameter to get to the wire breaking strength. So for 1/8 wire you would need a radius of 5 inches. Which won't fit into the turnbuckles.

4) crevice corrosion with them has been a long time nightmare. They trap water between the fitting and the wire and are almost impossible to get dry

Again they can be used, and on small boats you can probably get away with a designed in strength loss, but it is a major compromise to gain little.


Dan,

The synthetic are great when done properly, a nightmare otherwise. The upside it doing it right isn't that hard, it just takes the willingness to do it right from the beginning.

First, you have to use Dynex Duc.
Second, it has to be sized to control creep, NOT breaking strength as with wire
Third, you must use properly sized fittings.

Assuming these three rules are done right, you basically get standing rigging that costs about the same the first time it is installed, but a fraction the cost for replacements. Weighs about 1/5 that of stainless, and can be replaced in an afternoon of easy splicing when the line wears out.

Real life testing indicates a service life of 8ish years for the line, with the aluminium fittings lasting pretty much forever.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:13   #23
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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I am planning to pull everything off her before painting. I'll rebed and take a good look at all of it. Should I be worried about metal fatigue that I don't see with the naked eye?
Clean it up good, if no sign or corrosion or cracking I think you're good to go. if there's a machine shop shop around with Flourescent Penentrant inspection maybe have them look at them if you really want a good look, or look under "non-destructive testing". penetrant inspection just show fine cracks or porosity that the naked eye has trouble seeing, but a loupe is pretty good too.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:14   #24
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Hey Guys, we are talking about wire sizes for a 24 foot boat, which is pretty small stuff. There were pull tests done on 1by 19 wire useing nico press and it came out almost the same as swedges. I agree that thicker wire wont bend around a thimble, but we are not talking about a 40 foot boat. I like Norsman and staylock, but they are not needed for a 24 foot boat. Let the arguments begin!______Grant.
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Old 27-10-2012, 10:56   #25
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Re: Stay Replacement Costs and Advice

Crevice corrosion is why I changed out my rigging from swedges to Nico Press. I found some cracks that worried me(that the surveyor didnt notice) and had read an article about Nico Press that included pull tests and decided to go that way. This was almost 40 years ago and I dont remember where I found the article. The size wire used on my Contessa 26 was not too hard to work with normal size thimbles, but I would not try it with much larger wire. The new rigging made a number of trips up and down the Calif. Coast, to Mexico,Marquesas,Tuamotus,Tahiti and Hawaii with only one rigging problem which was from following a Gurus advice (Don Street) on roller furling. I had to change out the headstay half way to the Marquesas. It had nothing to do with the end fittings. I sailed that little boat hard and it held up well. I have owned larger boats since then and when I have found cracked swedges I have switched out to Norseman or Staylock. Back to my previous point; this thread is about a 24 foot boat._____Grant.
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