StaSet vs. Sta Set X

[Benebobby]

Fabric softener in a bucket of water. Soak Soft

[Bash]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Sta-set X is pretty old technology. There are much better alternatives.

+1. In fact, there are at least half a dozen better alternatives.

[Dustymc]

Originally Posted by Bash

+1. In fact, there are at least half a dozen better alternatives.

Care to elaborate on that? I'm looking to replace halyards ASAP, and following this thread closely.

For whatever it's worth, I'm leaning towards plain old Sta-Set. I have a 15,000 pound 32-foot boat, only about 35' of halyard in tension, and no aspirations of performance (from me or the boat!). However, the price difference to VPC is negligible, so the comparison comes down to things like performance (will I _really_ notice?) and ease of splicing (and ???).

And not to completely hijack the thread, but NER's widget recommends 3/8 diameter Sta-SetX. Given my expectations and boat, I think 3/8 Sta-Set would be appropriate. I'm disinclined to drop to 5/16 VPC, even though strengths are similar. (I currently have spliced wire<-->7/16 rope.) Any thoughts on diameter?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by cal40john

According to the specs at New England ropes, Sta SetX has 30% less stretch, and 20% greater tensile strength.

Go here:
New England Ropes - Cruising

select rope of interest, pdf at bottom has details on tensile strength and % stretch.

A couple three months ago I was researching a response to a thread about anchor line using the New England Ropes data sheets and I noted that the stretch listed for 3 strand nylon was less than braided nylon. There were a number of other issues I found that seemed obviously wrong. Since then I have been leery of New England Ropes technical data.

As of this evening you can still find the stretch data at the bottom of these data sheets.
http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_Megabraid.pdf
http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_3S_nylon.pdf

Maybe New England has found a braid construction that stretches a lot but it doesn't seem right, all the other braid constructions I could find in nylon had stretches below 10% at 30% of breaking strength.

[cal40john]

VPC has similar breaking strength and similar stretch to Sta Set X. I'd call it a wash unless the handling and price are better.

That is if you can believe any of their data.

John

[beetle]

Originally Posted by Morgan3820

I have a main halyard made out of 1/2 in. Sta set X. Problem is the stuff is stiff. It coils like wire. I am thinking of switching to Sta Set to get more flexability. All of my lines lead to the cockpit and it is a pia to coil. Am I really losing much by going with the greater stretch of the Sta Set?

Difficult to determine without knowing the P & E and boat that 1/2" sta set x halyard is for. And what is the halyard working length back to the winch or clutch that carries that load?

Rope halyards are all about stretch, as usually the diameters needed to minimize stretch to acceptable level will easily hold the load.

as per New England Ropes product brochure, 1/2" staset-x has a breaking load of 9600 pounds, with elongation of perhaps 1.8% at 20% break load, at 8.0 pounds/100' length.

that same line in 1/2" staset has a breaking load of 8500 pounds and 2% stretch at 20% break load, at 8.2 pounds/100' length.

You can work out the additional stretch the halyard will have when moving from one to the other.

My strong recommendation is to move to spectra SK-75 (the blue stuff) doublebraid for cruising halyards - half the weight, less stretch, working characteristics equivalent to dacron doublebraid in terms of UV resistance and feel in your hand. To match the 1/2" staset-x in samson warpspeed sk-75 doublebraid would be 3/8" diameter at 3.8 pounds/100'. The smaller diameter of spectra lines may be problematic for clutches and self-tailing winches.

And yes, I'm a racer leaning towards cruiser, and work hard to minimize weight aloft when possible - makes the boat easier to sail, faster, with greater righting moment. Every little bit adds up...

- rob/beetle

[cal40john]

Guy in our club just bought a boat and is fairly new to boating. Happened to get advice from the racing oriented folks on halyard replacement and bought 3/8" Warpspeed. When he found out I use 1/2" LS at 1/3 the price he had a cow.

With all the crap I keep on my boat, a little weight aloft isn't the major cause of performance loss. This guy lives on his boat, performance is pretty low on the priority list.

I don't race so I don't mind retensioning the halyards when the shape needs fixing. I've done enough racing in the past that I don't like poorly shaped sails, but it doesn't have to be instananeously fixed.

Some of my friends race, their boats are empty, they spend time stripping covers to reduce weight aloft, they don't want their sail shape wrong for more than 30 seconds, and they don't mind spending 3x the money.

Be informed, pick your camp and have fun.

John

Originally Posted by beetle

Difficult to determine without knowing the P & E and boat that 1/2" sta set x halyard is for. And what is the halyard working length back to the winch or clutch that carries that load?

Rope halyards are all about stretch, as usually the diameters needed to minimize stretch to acceptable level will easily hold the load.

as per New England Ropes product brochure, 1/2" staset-x has a breaking load of 9600 pounds, with elongation of perhaps 1.8% at 20% break load, at 8.0 pounds/100' length.

that same line in 1/2" staset has a breaking load of 8500 pounds and 2% stretch at 20% break load, at 8.2 pounds/100' length.

You can work out the additional stretch the halyard will have when moving from one to the other.

My strong recommendation is to move to spectra SK-75 (the blue stuff) doublebraid for cruising halyards - half the weight, less stretch, working characteristics equivalent to dacron doublebraid in terms of UV resistance and feel in your hand. To match the 1/2" staset-x in samson warpspeed sk-75 doublebraid would be 3/8" diameter at 3.8 pounds/100'. The smaller diameter of spectra lines may be problematic for clutches and self-tailing winches.

And yes, I'm a racer leaning towards cruiser, and work hard to minimize weight aloft when possible - makes the boat easier to sail, faster, with greater righting moment. Every little bit adds up...

- rob/beetle

[beetle]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Guy in our club just bought a boat and is fairly new to boating. Happened to get advice from the racing oriented folks on halyard replacement and bought 3/8" Warpspeed. When he found out I use 1/2" LS at 1/3 the price he had a cow.

Indeed, Warpspeed is more expensive than staset or staset-x:

staset 1/2" 1.48/ft (west marine)
staset-x 1/2" 1.62/ft (west marine)
warpspeed 3/8" 2.64/ft (pyacht)

if you're buying one 100' length for a mainsail halyard, the cost jumps from $162 to $264 using warpspeed over staset-x (assuming that the winches and/or clutches will handle a thinner 3/8" line), that's an extra $102 that could be used to buy other boat toys if the reduced stretch and weight aloft are not that important.

- rob/beetle

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Dustymc

Care to elaborate on that? I'm looking to replace halyards ASAP, and following this thread closely.

For whatever it's worth, I'm leaning towards plain old Sta-Set. I have a 15,000 pound 32-foot boat, only about 35' of halyard in tension, and no aspirations of performance (from me or the boat!). However, the price difference to VPC is negligible, so the comparison comes down to things like performance (will I _really_ notice?) and ease of splicing (and ???).

And not to completely hijack the thread, but NER's widget recommends 3/8 diameter Sta-SetX. Given my expectations and boat, I think 3/8 Sta-Set would be appropriate. I'm disinclined to drop to 5/16 VPC, even though strengths are similar. (I currently have spliced wire<-->7/16 rope.) Any thoughts on diameter?

If you're replacing spliced wire, consider Dynex Dux. Ease of splicing there is high. Other alternatives would include Spectra, Amsteel, or Dyneema. This is not just about performance and weight, but more about durability.

A buddy of mine did the single-handed transpac and chaffed through two sta-set halyards during the passage. That convinced me that the initial cost saving isn't all that great a deal.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Bash

If you're replacing spliced wire, consider Dynex Dux. Ease of splicing there is high. Other alternatives would include Spectra, Amsteel, or Dyneema. This is not just about performance and weight, but more about durability.

A buddy of mine did the single-handed transpac and chaffed through two sta-set halyards during the passage. That convinced me that the initial cost saving isn't all that great a deal.

Spectra and Dyneema are made of the same thing by different companies. Some people say there is a difference in quality. Samson's Amsteel is made of Dyneema. Amsteel Blue (which comes in different colors) has a UV inhibitor built in. While Dyneema/Spectra is supposed to be UV tolerant compared to other hi tech lines, even Amsteel blue doesn't last as long as polyester in the sun. The racing guys in the club put a retriever on the halyard, run it up the mast to hide it inside, and cover the other part of the halyard that comes out of the mast. At least Warpspeed has a polyester cover on it.

John

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Bash

This is not just about performance and weight, but more about durability.

A buddy of mine did the single-handed transpac and chaffed through two sta-set halyards during the passage. That convinced me that the initial cost saving isn't all that great a deal.

Yes... and no.

I chafed through a spectra/kevlar halyard, trimmed the end and chafed through it again within a season, and then smartened up and took a closer look at the masthead.

I changed the block (2:1 halyard on new sail) on the headboard, switched from a splice to a knot (the splice was going into the block), and replace the halyard with Stay-set X (which I didn't like, but separate issue) and that lasted until I sold the boat 6 years later with zero wear. I was stupid to postpone climbing.

He didn't chafe through because of the distance, he chafed because something was wrong.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benebobby

Fabric softener in a bucket of water. Soak Soft

I've done side-by-side testing (up-coming article in Practical sailor) and found that the fabric softener thing is more myth than fact. It is DESIGNED to wash out in the rain. Washing the ropes does generally provide some softening by removing dirt, but be careful; we also completely destroyed some ropes and splices by washing them; some simply dislike the motion of the machine.

However, if you google "dry rope treatment" you will find products that are actually intended for this purpose and work far better. We are doing some long-term testing now.

[SV Demeter]

Originally Posted by Adelie

A couple three months ago I was researching a response to a thread about anchor line using the New England Ropes data sheets and I noted that the stretch listed for 3 strand nylon was less than braided nylon. There were a number of other issues I found that seemed obviously wrong. Since then I have been leery of New England Ropes technical data.

As of this evening you can still find the stretch data at the bottom of these data sheets.
http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_Megabraid.pdf
http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_3S_nylon.pdf

Maybe New England has found a braid construction that stretches a lot but it doesn't seem right, all the other braid constructions I could find in nylon had stretches below 10% at 30% of breaking strength.

Megabraid is more stretchy than 3 strand. It is designed that way. A close inspection will reveal it is not your ordinary braided nylon. Designed for anchoring in mind but other line makers are using this plait style of braid for docklines too.

[beetle]

Just to follow the braided nylon a bit, if one looks at Yale's nylon Brait line (a braided nylon for anchoring), it stretches roughly 17.5% at 30% break load - this suggests at New England Ropes stretch data is not necessarily incorrect.

Nylon Brait \ Eight - Strand Plaited Nylon Rope | Yale Cordage

- rob/beetle