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Old 29-03-2013, 00:45   #16
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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I'm in the process of getting quotes for my rig. The two riggers I contacted both said it would be cheaper (due to less labour) to remove the mast ... and "there is always something else needing work". But at $1,400+ for the crane hire and labour for R & R alone, I am also investigating doing the job myself with the mast up.

I will be interested to follow this thread to help my decision. I have never been up a mast, so that in itself would be a new experience.
Talk to Joe Walsh at Woolwich, it may be worth a trip to Sydney Harbour.
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Old 29-03-2013, 00:48   #17
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Re: standing rigging replacement

I would be worried about longer term UV issues and abrasion with spectra.
Anyone have any real ocean time experience with a spectra rig?
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Old 29-03-2013, 01:29   #18
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
I'm in the process of getting quotes for my rig. The two riggers I contacted both said it would be cheaper (due to less labour) to remove the mast ... and "there is always something else needing work". But at $1,400+ for the crane hire and labour for R & R alone, I am also investigating doing the job myself with the mast up.

I will be interested to follow this thread to help my decision. I have never been up a mast, so that in itself would be a new experience.
You can reduce labour cost by prepping the rig for removal. This is basically pulling pins and loosening turnbuckles.

Rates are expensive wherever you are. I'm looking at roughly $700 USD to pull and restep both masts (we're a ketch). Maybe there's some other yard that's more reasonable for you.
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Old 29-03-2013, 01:51   #19
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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I would be worried about longer term UV issues and abrasion with spectra.
Anyone have any real ocean time experience with a spectra rig?
Yes.

It is excellent.

You don't have to worry about the sails getting chaffed
no rust
it can take lots of pounding (beating against 40 knots) and doesn't weaken
easy to splice
can make hanks for sails out of spectra, then spectra on spectra is super slick
bronze hanks are no problem as long as they have no sharp edges
very light weight
much nicer on hands for grabbing

If oversized properly (fatter than steel it replaces) UV and abrasion is not an issue. If you have abrasion, then you did something else wrong, fix that. For uv, it degrates on the outside, but this protects the inside, so oversized yes it weakens the outside 1mm, but it's still so strong it's ok. You could put it in black shrink wrap though, probably not a bad idea.
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Old 29-03-2013, 02:47   #20
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
But at $1,400+ for the crane hire and labour for R & R alone, I am also investigating doing the job myself with the mast up.
Is there any commercial dock where you can use the crane? F'rinstnce, in several ports I know there are small cranes for use by comm. vessels and sometimes used to pull masts. Check with the harbor authority.

In Morro Bay, California I'd pull masts for about $7.50 in quarters.
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Old 29-03-2013, 04:15   #21
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Re: standing rigging replacement

First thing, get a Top Climber www.topclimber.us/Mastclimbing, Mast Climber ATN Mastclimber | Single Handed Bosun Chair | Climbing the Mast or make up your own climbing rig out of mountain climbing gear. With these set ups, you'll be able to get up you mast by yourself. No need to wait for someone to help you up the mast in a bosun's chair and waste their time watching you do your thing. These rigs are really invaluable because they let you go up the mast at any time you feel like it without the need of assistance. I've probably used my Top Climber more than 30 times to do various work on the mast from replacing the spreaders, installing a spinnaker car track, installing lazy jacks, inspecting the rig, to just climbing to the top for a Zen Moment. Probably saved me a dismasting as I discovered a broken wire strand on the headstay the first time I used it.

You don't need to go crazy rigging support for the mast. All you need is a Halyard to replace any stay you are working on. Have done it a bunch of times. FWIW, had to take my boat to sea without the headstay for more than 12 hours because of the Japan Earthquake. Mast stayed up just fine with the jib halyard for support. Have been to the top with one of the stays or cap shrouds off at least eight times.

The money you save in not pulling the mast will more than pay for going with mechanical terminals like Norseman/StaLok or Hayn. These terminals are way superior to swages as they don't suffer as much, if at all, from crevice corrosion, can be easily assembled by you, taken apart and inspected at a later date if you feel the need, and reused with new cones if you own the boat long enough to want to replace the wire.

I've replaced all my rigging using a Top Climber and all but the headstay by myself. Needed help with the headstay because I was afraid of bending the furler extrusions. Got someone to help me for about 10 minutes each time putting up and taking down the headstay/furler.
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Old 29-03-2013, 10:10   #22
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Re: standing rigging replacement

I measured everything, took about a million pictures, and spent some time on the phone with the folks at riggingonly. Ended up getting slightly-too-long wires with one end swaged on (I apparently have wonky mast fittings) and one set of hi-mod fittings. My forestay took a couple days - riggingonly sent me the wrong fitting, and I ended up having a new wire made locally for it - but otherwise it took me less than one day to replace my rigging, by myself, with my mast up. It's really not that big of a project, and I have absolutely no idea what riggers can possibly be charging for. Ignorance, I guess....

I'm more of a hands-on type person, and having everything where it goes - so I can make a mark on a wire and know where to cut it, rather than doing whatever voodoo people do with the mast down - worked out really well for me. I'd had my mast down a couple years ago to replace wiring, so had no particular reason to go either way.

I looked hard ay Dynex, even replaced my lifelines with it, but ended up going with stainless, in no small part because stainless + new turnbuckles was MUCH cheaper than the Dynex terminators, but also because I got the very distinct (if possibly unfounded) impression that the synthetic is more work and maintenance, and taking on another maintenance project with my basket-case boat ain't gonna happen if I can avoid it. Maybe next time....
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Old 29-03-2013, 10:22   #23
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
The main reason to pull the rig is not so much to make replacing the rigging easier but to deal with any issues on the mast itself. Mast should be pulled for a major overhaul once every 10 years or so. Gives you a chance for a good inspection, replace sheaves, repair damage, treat corrosion, and do anything else needed. Contrary to popular thinking the mast itself is not maintenance free.
Not to mention all the other carp up there, lights, antennae, radars, etc., etc., and all the associated cabling. I think Island Planet is right.

I doubt that the average VHF cable lasts for much more than 10 years, and pulling new cables with the mast up is really not fun.

I am just pulling cables into my mast, which is out and horizontal, and even with the mast horizontal it's not exactly fun. I just got the NMEA2000 cable pulled to the masthead -- hurrah! Radar cable was done some time ago. Now I'm going back out to pull power cables for spreader lights and PTZ cam.

The power cables to the masthead tricolor/anchor light are tinned and double insulated and seem in perfect shape, so I'm leaving them. I'm also leaving the TV antenna coax (because I don't care enough about receiving TV to be bothered with pulling 90 feet of coax).

The NMEA2K cable was not much fun -- it was fairly fat and very stiff. But I'm afraid the really hard one will be the RG213 to the masthead for the new VHF antenna -- it's more than 10mm thick. Then LMR400 to the first spreader for the mobile phone antenna, and RG213 to the first spreader for the AIS/ham antenna, and a twisted pair to control the PTZ camera, and I'll be done!
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Old 29-03-2013, 10:52   #24
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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Not to mention all the other carp up there
I think you've got your boat upside-down....

I'd definitely take the mast down to run the wires-n-junk, but I'd still probably re-step it before cutting the wires to length and terminating the lower connections.
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Old 29-03-2013, 18:08   #25
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Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
I measured everything, took about a million pictures, and spent some time on the phone with the folks at riggingonly. Ended up getting slightly-too-long wires with one end swaged on (I apparently have wonky mast fittings) and one set of hi-mod fittings. My forestay took a couple days - riggingonly sent me the wrong fitting, and I ended up having a new wire made locally for it - but otherwise it took me less than one day to replace my rigging, by myself, with my mast up. It's really not that big of a project, and I have absolutely no idea what riggers can possibly be charging for. Ignorance, I guess....

I'm more of a hands-on type person, and having everything where it goes - so I can make a mark on a wire and know where to cut it, rather than doing whatever voodoo people do with the mast down - worked out really well for me. I'd had my mast down a couple years ago to replace wiring, so had no particular reason to go either way.

I looked hard ay Dynex, even replaced my lifelines with it, but ended up going with stainless, in no small part because stainless + new turnbuckles was MUCH cheaper than the Dynex terminators, but also because I got the very distinct (if possibly unfounded) impression that the synthetic is more work and maintenance, and taking on another maintenance project with my basket-case boat ain't gonna happen if I can avoid it. Maybe next time....
A friend tried dynex on a 23ft racing boat but ended up going back to s/s because of the creep.. Another boat had pbo which was ok but higher windage with the covers. Im not sure what the lifespan of dyneema stays are but it has to be shorter than s/s.
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Old 29-03-2013, 23:22   #26
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Re: standing rigging replacement

Did he use Dynex Dux or just some Dyneema line?? The line that Colligo uses is pre stretched and manufactured for low stretch. They size the line not based on the strength needed but on the strength needed to make creep a non issue.

There have been enough boats out there with synthetic rigging for enough years to have an idea of it's longevity. Anyone heard any reports based on service in southern waters?? When I talked with Colligo a few years back they were quoting 6 years, IIRC. That was a PFA figure from lack of experience. Believe there is UV protected synthetics now available. The exterior of the line also shields the interior from UV degradation. Just how successful that is in maintaining acceptable strength was up for debate. There is a catamaran just down from me that has synthetic shrouds. If I ever see them, the boat hardly ever goes out, will quiz them on how old the shrouds are.

One nice thing about sythetic rigging, the fittings are all reusable so you only need to replace the line and the splices are supposedly easy to do. The chafe factor is also another issue that needs to be watched with synthetics. The aforementioned Catamaran has no spreaders or other chafe points on their cap shrouds.
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Old 31-03-2013, 22:29   #27
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Re: standing rigging replacement

It was Dynex but maybe not big enough in diameter to make creep a non issue.

Last time I did the Top of the Gulf regatta in Thailand 2 multihulls lost their rigs because the synthetic rigging broke, from what remember it looked pretty old. I guess its the same as synthetic running backstays, I've seen a couple of boats lose rigs because they were to old as well. You maybe can't push it like you can with S/S, our rigging was 26 years old on the keelboat when we replaced it.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:15   #28
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Silly to take the mast down to replace rigging. Only the lowers are needed to hold it up enough for a climber. No halyard nonsense needed. Especially in a calm marina.

Related tip: Grease the threads of the turnbuckles before turning them. Maybe penetrant oil then grease if the rig has been ignored for a long time.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:03   #29
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Re: standing rigging replacement

did mine wire by wire, got to enjoy it towards the end and
i'm pretty comfortable up the top of the stick now. Why replace gal. with s/s? I reckon gal is cheaper, stronger and it tells you when it needs replacing unlike s/s which lets you pretend its ok even if you know its out of date - and then breaks...
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:28   #30
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Re: standing rigging replacement

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... I got the very distinct (if possibly unfounded) impression that the synthetic is more work and maintenance,
Unfounded is correct. What maintenance would you be performing?

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Originally Posted by Kestrahl View Post
A friend tried dynex on a 23ft racing boat but ended up going back to s/s because of the creep.. Another boat had pbo which was ok but higher windage with the covers. Im not sure what the lifespan of dyneema stays are but it has to be shorter than s/s.
"has to be"? Do you have evidence to support this claim? I have no creep but I used dux. If you don't use dux then you need more adjustment for tightening.

I think dyneema will last longer than stainless. I bet people thought steel would last longer than the first fiberglass boats.

As for the terminators costing more. I used regular bronze turnbuckles that cost $10 each (they are 1/2" with 12,000lbs strength) so I could use regular stainless heavy duty thimbles (2 for each stay) If you use metal cable you still need turnbuckles, so the only added cost was the thimbles plus I also needed a shackle to attach each stay to the tang on the mast.

If you want to save even more money, however, you can just use a little more dyneema and lash it between the two thimbles (3 or 4 times around) and tie it off and it's adjustable instead of a turnbuckle.

Even cheaper and better still is to carve some really hard wood (like lignum vitae) or possibly delrin and drill 3 holes then carve them out and make the deadeyes needed. I don't think this would be too difficult and you could achieve a much higher strength than the commercial terminators by making them larger and thicker so the dyneema line goes around a much wider turn radius (5:1 of diameter minimum or 8:1 or higher preferred)
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