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Old 06-02-2013, 07:57   #61
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Dockhead,

We've gone almost exclusively to Die-form wire, because one can rely on its composition, and for a given diameter it is stronger than 1 x 19 s/s.

Ann
Thanks; that's a hot tip.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:10   #62
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Mine was 36 years old, still looked good but the lowers had a very slight bend in them. I had them inspected and was told they could last longer, so i replaced all, for just under 1900.00. This year will be the first run on the new rigging, then i re wired the mast, new led msthead, added spreader light.
Now i know where i stand and that alone is worth every penny, as an added bonus i also have spares that can be used for someone else that decided not to replace.
Going to be an exciting new season, santa got me a new furler and new sails as well.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:10   #63
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Very good points Ann; I had never thought of the composition / quality assurance aspects of Die-form before
At 17 years old, I too will be replacing my 316 SS wire, even though it "looks" perfect. Work hardening can not be observed, so it seems due!

The intermediates and lowers will get exact similar replacements, with my StaLocs top and bottom, used over again. For the uppers, which require the least stretch, I will go up a size and switch to 316 SS "compact strand wire". (Used to be the brand "Dyform", before they went out of business years ago). I will have to order new StaLocs for these... This upsize in wire AND switching to a stronger type of wire, with less stretch, will allow for a much lower static load on the mast, with better mast bend characteristics too.

It is important to remember that unlike standard wire, when stressed, "compact strand wire" tries to unlay itself in the opposite direction! This makes it incompatible with some hydraulic back stay adjusters.

Also, on my "compact Strand" StayLocs, I will use RED lockTite on the nut, rather than the recommended BLUE, because unlike standard 1X19... the wire will be trying to unscrew it, rather than tighten it. I will still be able to free the nut, if replacement becomes necessary.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:17   #64
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Mark I believe the compact strand wire requires a different kind of termination. Hi-Mod uses slightly different cones for these and recommend not using any sealant inside them.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:29   #65
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Mark I believe the compact strand wire requires a different kind of termination. Hi-Mod uses slightly different cones for these and recommend not using any sealant inside them.
StaLoc does offer special cones for use exclusively with Compact Strand wire. They are a different cone, but the rest of the fitting is the same.

I believe in StaLocs a LOT, because in replacing dozens of them, after decades of hard use, when I get the wire out, and strip off the caulk, (I now use 3-M 4000UV), the wires inside are pristine and shiny like day one! This is true even on lower fittings.

I doubt that the same would be true of any other brand of fitting that is NOT filled with caulk, on a lower, after 15 + years.

There IS a learning curve on making up the perfect StaLoc, but done correctly, they are good for the life of the wire imo, and then re-usable.

At least this has been my experience over decades of use.
Mark
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:35   #66
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

I agree. I just replaced whiskers on the bowsprit after 18 years of service and the StaLocs were fine. I found that they had not been caulked so I started asking questions. The wire itself was not shiny but neither was it visibly damaged. I got a new bobstay made of Compact strand still in the box which I will replace soon and let you know what I find. Just out of interest.
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Old 06-02-2013, 12:43   #67
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The most abrasion and cut resistant line made today is actually dynema. Which is why the best abrasion sleeve for dynema is actually a slightly larger piece of it spliced over the wear area. The same material is one of the only non-metal fabrics that is approved for cut resistant gloves by OSHA, and after dragging trees thru the forest floor the Oregon study on using it in place of steel cables basically said that anyone who doesn't switch is making a mistake (in reality the ended the study because dynema was so much better that there was no reason to continue studying it).

As for synthetic rigging, there are a number of different materials used. Everything from PBO which is wholly unsuitable for a cruising boat, to carbon fiber pultruding rod also unsuitable, to dynema (really Dynex Dux). The cover depends on the underlying material... PBO fails in hours when exposed to UV so it's cover is all about UV protection, the dyneema' problem is also UV and is geared to that. The carbon rod... No idea it's issue is that it fractures from sudden impacts.

Different materials require different coverings.



Wolf,

The absolute weight is one thing, now figure out the additional righting moment.

If we assume that you have 30lbs of wire plus 30 pounds of fittings.., and the average height above the CE is 30' (half the height above water, plus a little since the weight is concentrated high up, and the CE is going to be below the water line). Then switching to dyneema would save you roughly 60lbs*.14 (dyneema rigging usually comes out at 1/7 the weight of stainless) = 8.57lbs

So for your stainless:
60*30=900foot pounds of righting moment
For dyneema
8.57*30=257

So you save about 645foot pounds. Or the equivalent of increasing the mass of a standard 5' foot deep fin keel by about 300lbs.
If my wire and fastening wieghed 60 lbs how could a save 60lbs. I thought of using Dyneena or Spectra rigging, but I have hank oo jibs and it wouldn't stand up to the friction and has a limited life due to UV. My wire wieghs 30lbs and my fittings 7 nico-press at deck level, 8 nicro press up the mast ans one swaged fitting at deck level total a couple of lbs)...the savings would not be that significant
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Old 06-02-2013, 13:11   #68
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Now I remember -- it was 6000 pounds to replace the lashings and do a full rig inspection on a Dyneema rigged boat -

So the lashings have to be replaced often? Those of you who have tried it, what are the real running costs like for a Dyneema rigged boat?
No ..it was $6k NZ -which is a lot less - tho still quite a lot....every stay was taken off and tested... that was the first test in 6 years and as the boat was about to do a 120 mile Coastal Race and will be going offshore this season decided it was a good idea - also insurance companies covering offshore will often look favourably at boats that have had a rig check....
Have been told that I should look at replacing the rigging in next 3-4 years (ie 10-12 yr shelf life) - having said that cap shrouds look mint as they have a good covering ...thing is with Dynex Dux (Dyneema) is it is still relatively new as a rig material and riggers tend to be cautious on not letting it get too old ...
Lashings only need to be replaced when they look as though it is prudent (1st time in 6 years) but they tend to take a bit of wear as they move through the thimble as the load goes on and off - they arent v expensive to do on their own...
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Old 06-02-2013, 13:37   #69
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

I think some of SS criticism (to be used as standing rigging, in the tropics) is not just.

My guess is then, that plenty of SS rigging failure comes when parts are not sized adequately and, perhaps twice as often, when they are not aligned properly - lack of toggles, bad entry angles, and resulting breaking/bending loads, etc..

Cheers,
b.
I agree with you b.
For most cruisers with quality wire stressed to less than 20% the life would be closer to 20 years than 5yrs. In tropical conditions with minimum wire diameter, low grade steel, residual stress in oxygen deprived terminations; then the recipe of salt water + tropical temperatures + stress over 20% is there for crevice corrosion and a short lifespan. Eliminate these a couple of these ingredients then changing every 10yrs is hard to justify.
But, the 5yr life for some wire is scary and spooks a lot of people.
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Old 06-02-2013, 13:49   #70
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Wolf,

Read it again. If your current stuff weights 60lbs, figure the dyneema would weigh in at around 8.5. It saves roughly 85% of the weight.


On my boat we have all dyneema rigging (except for the forstay). It is 7 years old, and when we shipped it to the islands, I did a complete rig inspection. So far nothing needs to be replaced, though I am expecting it in the near future just based on age. For now everything looks fine, and I couldn't see anything that looked like it was due for replacement. The line was all good, the fittings (aluminium) were in good shape, and other than an iffy chainplate everything was in good shape.
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Old 06-02-2013, 13:52   #71
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Food for thought, apparently Quality galvanised wire is getting harder to come by, probably because the shiny stuff takes less looking after and is the only product on most riggers shelves. Also the retail prices are now not that far below SS wire retail.
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Old 06-02-2013, 20:04   #72
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Aluminum masts gain most of their strength through compression, the resulting rig is called a "high tension rig" in this case you want as little stretch as possible in the wire. My boat is a different creature all together, the mast is wood, 3 piece laminated Sitka Spruce with a per-stressed camber, the resulting rig is a low tension rig, the wire is 7x19 and is stretchy,one of the attributes of my mast is that it is incredibly flexible mast that allows for adjusting sail shape. My rig was designed 75 years ago, aside from the cambered wood mast and 7x19 wire other differences are the way the wire is attached to the mast, by what is called a "soft eye", it goes around the mast and attaches to it'self ,a wood cleat on the mast to keep it in place. each wire is totally independent of the other.
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Old 26-05-2013, 03:33   #73
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

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Dock head,

At those prices I think someone is trying to take you to the cleaners. John Franta at Colligio is pretty much the guy who invented dyneema rigging, and I would be willing to bet for 6,000 pounds you could fly him anywhere in the world for a rig inspection.

Seriously give John Franta a call at Colligio and let him know I sent you. Explain that you are considering changing to dyneema rigging and ask him to work up a quote for the replacement. I am guessing it would be about the same cost as wire, but save you huge in the weig aloft department, and when it's time for new line it will cost a fraction of what wire would.

I wouldn't worry about abrasion overly much. They spec for creep not strength, so the dyneema typically comes out 2-3 times the strength of the wire it is replacing. This means someone could cut thru more than half the line and it would still be stronger than the wire you have now. And having worked with this stuff before it is very difficult to cut. I use a ceramic "never needs to be sharpened" knife, and have to replace it every 5-10 cuts because the dyneema dulls the blades.
Sorry to come in late on this but I'm looking to replace the standing rigging next year (current rigging is 10 yrs old and the boat was cruised arouind the atlantic circuit for all that time by the POs). I have considered Dyneema but how does UV affect this?
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Old 28-05-2013, 11:28   #74
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Re: Standing Rigging Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Wolf,

Read it again. If your current stuff weights 60lbs, figure the dyneema would weigh in at around 8.5. It saves roughly 85% of the weight.


On my boat we have all dyneema rigging (except for the forstay). It is 7 years old, and when we shipped it to the islands, I did a complete rig inspection. So far nothing needs to be replaced, though I am expecting it in the near future just based on age. For now everything looks fine, and I couldn't see anything that looked like it was due for replacement. The line was all good, the fittings (aluminium) were in good shape, and other than an iffy chainplate everything was in good shape.
1/4 316SS, 0.11lb/ft*300' = 33lbs, Bought through a commercial source at spool price w/shipwrights discount, cost me $225US, other hardware necessary cost me another $25, installed myself w/help from a rigger (traded some old bronze stuff for labor).My rigging is "softeyes" (wire goes up around wood mast and is attached to it'self, not electrolysis of dissimilar metals), what I removed had been up for 30 years and showed no degradation. All my fittings are bronze, with the exception of SS chain plates which I plan to replace with 954 bronze (which I will fabricate myself).
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