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Old 24-04-2014, 20:37   #16
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Re: standing rigging

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
i'll be the first to admit that there are stronger methods for terminating rigging wire than nicopress fittings. but keep in mind we're talking a smaller and lighter boat. the albin vega weighs in at 5000 lbs. the mast isn't all that tall - maybe 30 to 35 feet. so it's easy - and not too expensive - to go up one wire size for added strength.

multistrand wire like 7x19 is very flexible. there are thimbles available that are egg shaped rather than round and permit a wider loop. i would suggest that nicopress terminals are easier to inspect then swaged or even stalok terminals.

having said that, my current boat is stalok all around. but it's four times as heavy as the vega. and i bought it that way.
Thimble and Nicopress termination is often used on 7x7 and 7x19 wire. The flexibility of such construction makes this a viable method. But, both of those wire constructions are much stretchier than 1x19... that's why 1x19 (or better) wire is nearly universally used for standing rigging these days. You might be willing to make that compromise in keeping the mast straight and plumb under load... most folks are not.

As I said before, saving a couple of hundred bucks on terminals will not look so good if you loose the rig. I guess it ends up being your personal risk analysis and what your plans for the boat might be.

Hope that you can come to some useful conclusion.

Jim
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Old 24-04-2014, 20:56   #17
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Re: standing rigging

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
As I said before, saving a couple of hundred bucks on terminals will not look so good if you lose the rig.
i'm with you on that one jim. when the rig comes down you're not going to remember that you saved five bucks on a terminal....
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Old 05-06-2014, 23:34   #18
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Re: standing rigging

I have the original gal rigging (30 yrs old) on my ferro yacht, all the wire has nico swagged end fittings, and it went around the world like that!
I personally am heading towards Montissiers style and using grips when I re rig. Worked for him and I don't see why it wouldn't now. Cheap and effective.
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Old 06-06-2014, 07:41   #19
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Re: standing rigging

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Originally Posted by Catalpa1 View Post
I have the original gal rigging (30 yrs old) on my ferro yacht, all the wire has nico swagged end fittings, and it went around the world like that!
I personally am heading towards Montissiers style and using grips when I re rig. Worked for him and I don't see why it wouldn't now. Cheap and effective.
OK, a little help for someone on the other side of the ocean that doesn't speak Aussie. Not quite sure what a "grip" is. Is that another term for Nico or similar crimp fittings or something different?

Regarding galvanized wire, how is it doing cosmetically after 30 years? Getting any rust?
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Old 06-06-2014, 15:29   #20
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Re: standing rigging

Hi skipmac, the gal wire on Catalpa, although it has some surface rust on, is still in good condition, but I am re rigging for my own piece of mind. But no broken strands, and after taking a small amount of the rust off with a wire brush, I revealed shiny, like new wire and core underneath. But for the price of gal wire, I'm figuring I'll just re rig and give me another 30 years!

The grips I was referring to are also known as wire rope clamps or bulldog grips where instead of using a nico press fitting, you simply wrap the wire around the thimble then use 3 small U shaped clamps that hold the wire around the thimble.
They cost around $1.00 here in Oz and I love the fact that it's simple and very easy to inspect, which means no hidden surprises.
It worked for Montissier for years, even getting a few bad knockdowns, so I honestly don't see why it can't still be used.
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Old 06-06-2014, 15:40   #21
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pirate Re: standing rigging

Still used on many of the small sailboats round the UK... I've used them on several mono's and both my Wharrams.
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Old 06-06-2014, 15:44   #22
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Re: standing rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalpa1 View Post
Hi skipmac, the gal wire on Catalpa, although it has some surface rust on, is still in good condition, but I am re rigging for my own piece of mind. But no broken strands, and after taking a small amount of the rust off with a wire brush, I revealed shiny, like new wire and core underneath. But for the price of gal wire, I'm figuring I'll just re rig and give me another 30 years!

The grips I was referring to are also known as wire rope clamps or bulldog grips where instead of using a nico press fitting, you simply wrap the wire around the thimble then use 3 small U shaped clamps that hold the wire around the thimble.
They cost around $1.00 here in Oz and I love the fact that it's simple and very easy to inspect, which means no hidden surprises.
It worked for Montissier for years, even getting a few bad knockdowns, so I honestly don't see why it can't still be used.
OK, now that's a term we understand in the US. Wire clamps or u-clamps.

Have never had a boat with galvanized wire but have studied the issue and from what I understand it doesn't have the same issues with work hardening, brittleness and such that you get with SS so is good for much longer. No need to through away nice, shiny wire every 8-12 years because it might snap like a twig from old age.
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Old 06-06-2014, 16:29   #23
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Re: Standing Rigging

Boatman, how did you find that worked for you? I haven't really met anyone yet that has first hand experience of rigging that way. I'm keen to try it because I just love the simplicity of it.
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Old 06-06-2014, 16:34   #24
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Re: Standing Rigging

If you use those cable clamps, just remember to never saddle a dead horse
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Old 06-06-2014, 19:01   #25
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Re: Standing Rigging

I have used the nicopress method for about 10,000 odd miles from Europe to Australia. I rerigged her in Greece where my original intention was to splice the terminations as descibed by Brian Toss. However time and seasonal changes meant I had to find a faster method. My yacht is about a tonne heavier than your albin vega (great boat by the way, almost bought one myself) and I rerigged using 6mm, 1/4" 1 x 19 stainless wire. I bought a 100metre roll and made everything up myself except the swage which I fitted around the thimble using a self made riggers vice. This was then taken to a riggers to be hydraulically pressed which took about half an hour and cost about $40 for 22 terminations. Having researched this well before doing the work I followed the following basic theory/rules/guidelines:

1. Bending 1x19 stainless wire rope around a thimble is not recommended for greater than 6mm wire. This is why 7x7 construction is more common with thimbles (and larger vessels) as it is much more flexible however there is a strength and/or weight trade off using 7x7. This is why very few large yachts sailors (and I class anything over 4-5 tonne displacement as large) will know of this method of rigging termination.*
The problem is getting the tension (when the rig is tuned and then used) to be evenly distributed across all of the strands of wire as they pass around the thimble radius. As the 1x19 rope is bent around the thimble it naturally wants to unlay a bit and if left like this a few strands will be taking the load intended for 19. As the OP said in his post "it goes against the design principle" of the wire. This is why:

2. You should use an oversize thimble to make the bending radius larger to lessen the unlaying effect. How large you may ask? At least one size bigger, ideally as large as possible but aesthetics come into play here. Also use thimbles that are not split, if I had the funds I would have bought solid thimbles for greater security however there is no reason why a welded thimble will not provide ample strength.

3. The only termination that has no load concentration at any point is the wire rope splice.

4. Having your own swage tool would make the job completely self sufficient and mean that you could make repairs enroute. I have too many tools onboard (as I use them to make a living as I travel) so I packed enough u bolt/bulldog grips (ala Moitessier) and spare wire rope to make up the longest rigging length should any failure occur enroute.

I suggest you take the money for one or two sta-locks and get a good riggers book as well as speaking to the most knowledgable riggers in your area. I did this before committing to this method and from the most experienced rigger in my state I remember the following statement: "The rigging termination method (splicing, nicopress, Sta-lock or the modern roll swage) makes only a small difference to breaking strain of the standing rigging" given each are done correctly.

Some methods are much faster and far less labour intensive like the roll swage. My personal opinion stems from the type of cruising I do which is far away from any yacht service support industry. So I need to be able to inspect and repair all voyage critical stuff myself. As such only the splice and to a lesser extent the nicopress fitting allows the user to see the terminations point of failure and make repairs BEFORE they fail. A Sta-lock may fail internally without warning (usually due to improper fitting which cannot be checked once it is done) and the roll swage usually always fails at the wires exit point where work hardening over time and/or crevice corrosion weaken the wire. Neither of these terminations can be inspected in the field and the roll swage cant be inspected at all without specialist equipment.

The only other "affordable" termination method I would choose would be splicing which in my opinion is the best for self sufficient cruising. Just out of interest the riggers who taught me wire rope splicing do a lot of splicing for the UK's hot air ballooning industry where the ONLY acceptable wire rope termination conforming to British Standards is.. the wire splice!
A long reply I know but I'm just detailing my humble experience which has lasted through some fairly strong storms and seas.

Good luck and fair winds.
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