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Old 14-10-2013, 13:13   #1
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Splices vs Swages

Hi all,

I'm pondering a major rig rebuild this winter. Pearson Triton. Via the rigger, all the standing rigging is old and suspect. Turnbuckles appear to be original. I'm thinking of changing from a fractional rig to a masthead while I'm at it, and double spreaders. The mast may be shot too, and I'm wondering about replacing it regardless with something a bit more stout.

My budget is: as cheap as possible while still making a bullet proof rig. I'd like to be able to go anywhere and not worry about the rig. I'd like to do as much work as possible myself and think I can. Looking around for a used mast of slightly larger section. I'd like to find something good and then have someone weld on a stout masthead fitting.

I'm reading Brion Toss and I've been wondering about splicing (Liverpool?) vs swaging terminals. Swaging seems like the obvious choice for ease, but splicing would be significantly cheaper and would be something that I could repair and inspect easily without having to worry about finding fittings if I was somewhere remote.

Anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts about spliced rigging.

Thanks
Paul
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Old 14-10-2013, 13:30   #2
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Re: Splices vs Swages

Very interested in splicing my own rigging wire, and for the same reasons you mention in your post. For hand splicing, 1 X 19 wire is out of the question - you will have to go to 7 X 7 wire, and a standard Liverpool or a Liverpool lock splice is not difficult. The only question is the relative merits (or otherwise) of using 7 X 7 as opposed to 1 X 19 wire in a standing rigging application.
Look forward to the forum's input on this.
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Old 14-10-2013, 13:42   #3
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Re: Splices vs Swages

I might buy some galvanized wire and give it a shot.

I just found that Brion Toss has a forum of his own, I posted this (still interested in anything anyone has to say here)
Questions about my Triton rig - SparTalk

Thanks!
Paul
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Old 14-10-2013, 14:45   #4
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There is a third option: mechanical couplers such as Sta-loc and Norseman.

Figure out how many ends you have, the costs for good thimbles and splicing tools and the costs for mechanical terminals. Figure that each splice is going to take an extra 12-14" wire so this needs to be figured into the amounts. For the number of terminations you need to make add up the total costs. I suspect splicing will be a bit cheaper but not a lot.

What size wire are you using?
Assuming a double spreader rig with double lowers I count 10 wires or 20 ends.
If you want an inner forestay then 3 more wires or 26 total ends.
If you go with a Double back stay then +1 wire for 28 total ends.
Or a split backstay which would be +2 wires and 30 total ends.
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Old 14-10-2013, 14:50   #5
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Re: Splices vs Swages

right. What I meant was mechanical couplers, not swages. I wasn't considering swages. I was thinking about Hi-Mod fittings as I'd heard they might be superior.

Makes sense about the extra wire. Also if you screw up the splice, you lose the whole wire. I guess start with the longer ones first...

I'm a bit confused about the inner forestay. Would I necessarily need to add running backstays in that situation?

Thanks for the math. That makes things a bit clearer.
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Old 14-10-2013, 14:59   #6
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Re: Splices vs Swages

You also have to consider the considerable stretch involved with 7x7 wire construction. Some rigs are more tolerant of stretch than others, but keeping a tight forestay is always a good thig when attempting to go upwind.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 14-10-2013, 15:35   #7
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Re: Splices vs Swages

Bullet proof?

Dunno, but Pearson always had a good rep for a reasonably strong boat. Replacing the original rigging and hardware with "same same" eliminates any questions of new mistakes, and gives you a reliable standard to work with. Likewise if the mast doesn't have any problems, just keep it. Check the gooseneck for wear, check all the fittings on it, but I've never heared anyone complain about weak rigs on a Pearson.
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Old 14-10-2013, 15:49   #8
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I meant 12-24" for extra length. All depends on what your splice instructions say.

With a really stout mast I would be ok without running backs.
If the inner forestay attaches at the upper spreaders and the head of the main is within about 12" of the upper spreaders with the 3rd reef in that would probably work too.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:35   #9
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Re: Splices vs Swages

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post

With a really stout mast I would be ok without running backs.
If the inner forestay attaches at the upper spreaders and the head of the main is within about 12" of the upper spreaders with the 3rd reef in that would probably work too.
Hmmm...I've never thought of that. Do people use running backs for a deeply reefed main too? I kinda had thought they were only for jibs?


This is a picture of my friend's rig.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:54   #10
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Not that I know of. A bigger issue with deeply reefed main is the mast pumping when going to weather. For a single spreader rig double lowers or singles with a babystay help this. On a double spreader rig an inner forestay is nice because the resistance from the lowers is concentrated so much lower.

Or just get a really beefy mast.
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Old 14-10-2013, 22:15   #11
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Re: Splices vs Swages

Why do you want to go double spreaders on a Triton?? Do you plan on moving the chain plates inboard?? Go with Norseman/Sta/Lok mechanical terminals. They are easy to do once you get the hang of them. Should be able to rig your boat in a day. If you are patient can get them at a significant discount from eBay or Craig's List. Use the time you save to replace the chainplates.
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Old 14-10-2013, 23:10   #12
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Re: Splices vs Swages

If you are on the cheap, first determine if you mast is OK , and then dont change anymore than you have to. The Triton has a great reputation, so changing the style of rigging is an unnecessary expense. Even if you were to add a removable inner forestay and running backs, that doesnt mean you need to change your mast or go to double spreaders. KISS has a lot going for it. Just my 2 cents worth. ____Grant.
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Old 14-10-2013, 23:22   #13
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Re: Splices vs Swages

I just reread the thread and must say that going to galvanized rigging can be false economy, in that if you sail very many miles you will wear out enough jib hanks to have paid for the SS forestay in the first place. Galvy rigging is also hard on the stitching on the main if you are running downwind very much. Ground tackle and rigging are 2 places you dont want to go cheap. Just my 2 cents worth. ____Grant.
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Old 15-10-2013, 11:50   #14
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Re: Splices vs Swages

Sorry...to be clear I was talking about galvanized wire to practice splices with. I don't want to build a weak rig.
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Old 15-10-2013, 11:53   #15
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Re: Splices vs Swages

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Why do you want to go double spreaders on a Triton?? Do you plan on moving the chain plates inboard?? Go with Norseman/Sta/Lok mechanical terminals. They are easy to do once you get the hang of them. Should be able to rig your boat in a day. If you are patient can get them at a significant discount from eBay or Craig's List. Use the time you save to replace the chainplates.
Hi,

The chain plates are inboard...did you mean outboard?

As for double spreaders, I don't have a great reason other than if I did end up going with a new(er) mast, I'd like to make it the best rig I can, seems like double spreaders would be stronger than single. You can disabuse me of that notion though.

Basic reasons for wanting to go with a masthead rig
1) Stronger (?)
2) Easier to rig/no jumper struts
3) Easier to rig spinnakers
4) More room for a staysail
5) Potential for more light air sail area (I don't have an inboard)

Paul
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