Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-10-2013, 16:13   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: Splices vs Swages

i re-rigged last year using gal wire swaged, and had the wires cut about 6-10 inches shorter so i could use chain between wire and turnbuckle - that bit of chain has many uses, not least being to take any pressure off accurate sizing of the wire lengths. I like gal wire because it stays strong even when its very rusty and , because it does get rusty, you cant ignore it when the rig needs replacing. However, i used s/s for the forestays because of the hanks. The other thing i was going to suggest is to adapt your fractional to a cutter rig - 2 forestays are always better than 1.
__________________

__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 16:32   #17
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: Splices vs Swages

Quote:
Originally Posted by sully75 View Post
Sorry...to be clear I was talking about galvanized wire to practice splices with. I don't want to build a weak rig.
Mate.. you obviously don't know your wires... Stainless is brittle and does not take kindly to bends... furthermore galvanized is 1/3rd stronger than the equivalent stainless.. and lasts up to 25yrs... not maybe 10... and that's with serious use not just w/ends + the 2 week holiday cruise
If your planning on stainless eye splices you'll have the weakest rig in the world..
For those happy with galvanized... forget splicing... a steel thimble and 2 D clamps are faster and just as efficient..

Opps... may have mis-interpreted.. if so my apologies
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 16:48   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: Splices vs Swages

The Triton is a well known boat with a great reputation... why change the rig? On the one hand you want to conserve money replacing the rigging on the other you are thinking of rerigging the whole boat/new mast....???? It's great to kick these things around, but...... "if it aint broke dont fix it.." It's also a narrow boat if I remember right.... an extra 50 lbs an average of 20 feet up is like loosing 1000 lbs of ballast!
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 00:08   #19
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The Triton is a well known boat with a great reputation... why change the rig? On the one hand you want to conserve money replacing the rigging on the other you are thinking of rerigging the whole boat/new mast....???? It's great to kick these things around, but...... "if it aint broke dont fix it.." It's also a narrow boat if I remember right.... an extra 50 lbs an average of 20 feet up is like loosing 1000 lbs of ballast!
Extra spreaders and intermediate shrouds are likely to be 4-7lb. Inner forestay and running backs maybe double that. So MAYBE 15lb added to rig centered below mid-height and 2-4lb of jumpers removed from top 1/4 to 1/6th of mast. Not a wash but close.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 09:54   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: Splices vs Swages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Extra spreaders and intermediate shrouds are likely to be 4-7lb. Inner forestay and running backs maybe double that. So MAYBE 15lb added to rig centered below mid-height and 2-4lb of jumpers removed from top 1/4 to 1/6th of mast. Not a wash but close.
If I'm reading his original post correctly he's also talking about a heavier mast section.
"...Looking around for a used mast of slightly larger section..."
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 09:58   #21
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
If I'm reading his original post correctly he's also talking about a heavier mast section.
"...Looking around for a used mast of slightly larger section..."
Oops, missed that.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 12:03   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 534
Re: Splices vs Swages

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Mate.. you obviously don't know your wires... Stainless is brittle and does not take kindly to bends... furthermore galvanized is 1/3rd stronger than the equivalent stainless.. and lasts up to 25yrs... not maybe 10... and that's with serious use not just w/ends + the 2 week holiday cruise
If your planning on stainless eye splices you'll have the weakest rig in the world..
For those happy with galvanized... forget splicing... a steel thimble and 2 D clamps are faster and just as efficient..

Opps... may have mis-interpreted.. if so my apologies
No apologies necessary! You're correct. That's why I was asking.

My friend who ended up with the double spreader rig ended up using the top section off a tapered mast from a larger boat. So it might have ended up being the same or lighter weight than the original.

I appreciate all the comments. Still waiting to hear from the rigger about his final analysis of the mast. My thought was that if I was going to invest in new standing rigging I would want to make sure the mast was sound, and if I was pondering replacing the mast I should do every last thing I would want to do all at once. In truth the boat sails really well as-is though. Not having an engine, it seems as though the potential to go with a larger jib would make a masthead rig a good idea for light air sailing.

Anyway, I appreciate all your comments...I ask because I didn't know!
__________________
sully75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 12:05   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 534
Re: Splices vs Swages

For the record, would a masthead rig with double spreaders on a mast of the same section be stronger than a single spreader fractional rig with jumper struts theoretically?
__________________
sully75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 16:29   #24
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,056
Re: Splices vs Swages

One might also consider, most of us will sell our boats before we die. And when the next buyer sees galvanized rigging instead of the "correct" stainless, they're going to figure "Uh oh, a cheapskate, I'd better look at another boat and not wonder what other corners he cut."

Not that the galvanized custom rig may not be better--but it almost certainly will be seen as needing replacement and correction again. Of course if you plan to keep it another 15 figures, that doesn't matter so much.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 16:37   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,317
Images: 91
Re: Splices vs Swages

My opinion, for what it is worth (which ain't a whole lot) is that if you have a boat with a single spreader fractional rig, you should stick with a single spreader fractional rig. If you want a double spreader masthead rig, sell the boat that you have and buy one with the rig that you want. You talk about changing masts and spreaders and chainplates and rigging types as if you were talking about changing your underwear. I don't think it is that simple, nor cheap.
__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 16:53   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Apalachicola, North Florida
Boat: 1969 Morgan 28, Stiletto 27
Posts: 171
Re: Splices vs Swages

I thought about redesigning the mast and rigging of my boat. I'm a pretty clever fellow.

But old Charlie Morgan (fill in your designer) is even more of a clever fellow. I doubt I could out-design him on the excellent boat he designed.

So Ill save the money for Macorix rum down in DR, and sail it the way he designed it.
__________________
Your WORKING IQ is your regular IQ, divided by the number of boats you own.
Bestathook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 18:37   #27
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Splices vs Swages

Buy stock wire, buy stock Staloks, DIY.

May end up same price as swages BUT Staloks you can re-use them.

Also, have never seen a broken Stalok yet.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2013, 15:18   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Boat: Valiant 40-169
Posts: 175
Re: Splices vs Swages

You don't say anything about the chainplates. Unless you know for sure they have been replaced not too long ago your rig will not be "bulletproof" unless you do replace them.
__________________
gordwedman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2013, 16:14   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,006
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Splices vs Swages

The main reason for going with multiple spreader rigs is to move the chainplates inboard or go for a taller mast with the existing chainplate location. There is a magic shroud to mast angle, believe it's 12 degrees, where the compression load of keeping the mast upright shoots way up. By going with multiple spreaders, you can move the chainplates inboard and still keep that magic angle. If you exceed the angle, you have to increase extrusion dimensions/wall thickness and/or increase the size of the wire and fittings. The weight penalty beceomes prohibitive. Race boats especially have gone to multiple spreader rigs to reduce mast specs for lighter weight and narrower sheeting angle. It works but they are fragile. You introduce mulitple failure points into the system from addition wire, hardware and the spreaders themselves.

People claim a multi spreader system is safer because the failure of say a cap shroud doesn't mean you lose the hole rig. Fine and dandy but you've still added twice as many points of possible failure so have you really gained anything.

If you want a truly strong rig, move your chainplates out to the hull and stick with single spreaders.

FWIW, don't think running backstays are an issue on a cruising boat. For coastal sailing, a single spreader rig without running backs, will work just fine on a boat with a double headsail rig. For offshore work, The runners help to stabilize the mast and keep it in column. Not a bad thing even if there was no staysail stay. You seldom tack or jibe on passages so setting up the running backs is really a non issue. On our Westsail, could even set them up before tacking if not sailing too far off the wind on the opposite tack.

Agree with you on the masthead rig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sully75 View Post
Hi,

The chain plates are inboard...did you mean outboard?

As for double spreaders, I don't have a great reason other than if I did end up going with a new(er) mast, I'd like to make it the best rig I can, seems like double spreaders would be stronger than single. You can disabuse me of that notion though.

Basic reasons for wanting to go with a masthead rig
1) Stronger (?)
2) Easier to rig/no jumper struts
3) Easier to rig spinnakers
4) More room for a staysail
5) Potential for more light air sail area (I don't have an inboard)

Paul
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2013, 16:35   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: Splices vs Swages

I haven't spliced wire rope in many years, but the first memory of it that comes to my mind is bloody fingers & painful puncture wounds. I did not enjoy that process at all. Conversely, swages treated me very well. They were quick, easy & reliable.

All that aside, with the current generation of synthetic materials that we now have available, I've been considering trying something along the lines of Amsteel for side stays. I don't think that I'm ready to try that stuff anywhere that a hank needs to hang on, but for side stays, it may be worth considering. This would be breaking new ground for me. It's just an idea at this point.
__________________

__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.