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Old 11-12-2006, 03:09   #1
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Should we have running backstays ?

We have an Adams 35 steel sloop with a double spreader mast and an inner forestay. There for and aft lower shrouds as well as the uppers. i have read about needing running backstays for vessels with inner forestays especially as we want to use a staysail. We do not have running backstays at the moment.

Should we install them, if so any suggestions are apprecated !

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Old 11-12-2006, 05:34   #2
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Yes .
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:33   #3
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Do you have fore and aft lower shrouds for both sets of spreaders? (in other words, 4 lower shrouds on each side)

Are the spreaders swept back or are they "inline"?

Where does the top of the inner forestay come (relative to the spreaders and your aft lower shrouds)?

What's your mast section like?

The short answer is -- yes.

On my boat, the running back stays and the intermediate check stays connect to the mast using T-terminals -- there are fittings set into the wall of the mast that accept these rings spliced onto the end of the stay (made of high-tech rope):



These are held into the fittings with these rubber plugs:



Hope this helps.
The T-terminals:
NAVTEC Rigging Solutions

and the T-plugs from here:
NAVTEC Rigging Solutions
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Old 11-12-2006, 12:23   #4
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Depending on the mast and rigging strength, you may not need the runners, but even so, they do help with the inner forestay / staysail luff tension. Without the runners, you really have to tighten the inner forestay to get good (upwind) sail shape.

When the wind gets up, and the seas get rough, you will be very glad to have the running backstays.
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Old 11-12-2006, 13:08   #5
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If your inner forestay is attached to a tang at the spreader and your lower shrouds are swept well aft from that spreader then you may not need running backstays. I would add them anyway.
As all have said before if you have an inner forestay that is going to carry a staysail in heavy weather I would add them to make certain the mast can carry the extra tension created by the staysail on that inner forestay.
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Old 11-12-2006, 14:39   #6
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The spreaders are not swept back. The upper spreaders only have one shroud on each side and the inner forestay attaches to the mast at the top spreaders. It is a masthead rig. The mast is a strong one but it is old and has a significant prebend in its shape.

Thanks for the tips, looks like we will be installing some running backstays.

Would you run them to a dedicated winch or use the sheet winches in the cockpit ?
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Old 11-12-2006, 15:04   #7
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Quote:
Would you run them to a dedicated winch or use the sheet winches in the cockpit ?
The ones on my CSY 33 were run as a 4 part purchase where the fiddle is attached to the eye on the backstay shroud then to the second fiddle to a pad eye on deck using a snap shackle on the lowest fiddle. The line from the purchase just runs to a cleat. I wouldn't think you'll need a winch. The 4 part purchase can put significant tension on the shroud. It's just extra support for the head of the staysail. I never ran with them all the time.
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Old 11-12-2006, 15:26   #8
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From your description you have a classic two spreader mast head rig with lowers (D1) for and aft, then (D2) terminating at the base of the upper spreader, then (cap) shrouds terminating at the mast head. It's a good solid rig and should give you no problems when flying stuff from the inner forestay provided you back it up with runners.

As other have said you can use either a winch or a purchase for the runners, the load will be pretty damn big so don't undersize any of this. Talk to your rigger or sailmaker, remember all this stuff is moving around as you pile drive through waves.

A final note. Look at where the inner forestay terminates to the deck. If it is not on a substantial bulkhead you will need to create a stay from the deck to the hull to carry the load. Wouldn't do if your deck lifted.

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Old 11-12-2006, 22:07   #9
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I have been discussing this exact thing with a rigger. I'd have to disagree with the idea of using anything less than a winch. I have raced on boats with running backstays and they are harder to grind in than a #1 in 20 knots of breeze. The headstay tension of the staysail will be dependent on how much tension you can get on the running back. If you are considering serious offshore work with the boat and using the staysail as your storm jib the tension required to keep the luff of the staysail tight would be substantial. I don't believe that a block and tackle would give you enough purchase to tighten the luff on anything more than a 22' boat. Another thing is to consider what material you are going to make the runners out of It will need to be a very low stretch material. The reason I say this is b/c a secondary purpose would be to keep the rig from pumping. In the old IOR days they used to put Baby Stays on some thick mast sections to prevent the mast from pumping in choppy seas.

If you are not planning on offshore work I don't know that it would be necessary to have runners. Chances are that if it gets rough enough to require runners that you would probably either not go out or could cahnge your course such that the mast wouldn't pump. Personally I am planning on putting runners on my boat when I rerig but not using them most of the time b/c they are a PITA. On the other hand I think a cutter rig would need them if the staysail is to be used in storm conditions.
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Old 11-12-2006, 22:14   #10
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We will be going offshore, a lot ! And we would use the storm job on the inner forestay.

So if we run a low stretch rope like spectra would that do the job, what diameter of spectra ?

Mick
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:20   #11
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Consider sizing your runners to match the breaking strength of the rest of your standing rigging. My boat has -10 rod rigging all around, so my runners are 10 mm T-900 (New England Ropes), which has a tensile strength of 10,000 pounds to match that of the rod.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:29   #12
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Mick:

I do not know how to size rigging but what Catamont says makes logical sense to me. How about asking a rigger?
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:40   #13
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Hi Ribbony,
We had a 40 Adams with a similar sounding masthead rig and inner forestay - and it was set up with running backstays.
Pain in the butt for short tacking when short handed but practically we did not use them in anything under 15 knots of breeze and rarely reaching / off wind.
Ours had 4:1 blocks and we'd get all the tension required to keep the rig in line by hand with a last second short grind on the winch. Practice makes perfect but suspect you'll get most of what you want by hand.
And yes - we coul doften have used the primary upwind winch - but did have secondary winches (for spinnaker) which were more often utilised for the runners.
Nice boat - enjoy

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Old 12-12-2006, 15:57   #14
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The current issue* of ”Good Old Boat” magazine, has an article on four basic elements of yacht design (“Sweet Compromises”), by Naval Architect, Ted Brewer.
Discussing his 4Th parameter (performance), Brewer suggests that a sloop might be rigged with an added inner forestay and running backstays for offshore work.
He opines that:
”... Little, if any, performance will be lost and the stronger rig, with the ability to set a staysail, will definitely add to safety and peace of mind in heavy weather ...”

* Good Old Boat magazine, Issue 52,Jan/Feb 2007
Good Old Boat: The sailing magazine for the rest of us
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Old 18-12-2006, 16:04   #15
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Question about the Runners

THis is a very informative thread. I was putting the inner forestay T tang into the mast last summer while the rig was down. The Inner forestay tang is few inches above second spreader. The runner tangs are attached via 1/2" thrubolt. The riggger pre-bend them and showed me how to drill a hole symeytrical on each side and bisect the mast exactly in half. The runner tangs are just below the intermediate shrowd tangs and about 6" below the forestay tang.
For runners I have spliced a double braid 1/2" polyester line onto a stainless thimble and attached it to the tangs. The line goes to a ronstan large snatch block on the toerail as far aft as the pedestal, and then to a #32 spinnaker winch in the cockpit. C&C has a built in aluminum toerail which provides very strong points of attachments.
The question I had was this: I have never flown this thing. I have a hank on storm sail on it. How do I know that the mast is back in column? As I load the ABI lever I notice a substantial amount of rake on the mast already. Since we are not heeled or sailing should I try to tention one or both of the runners to bring the mast back? The inner forestay doesn't seem that tight, nowhere near as the -10 rod rig that I have.
And when we start sailing with storm gib, how am I gonna know when enough load is put on the winward runner?
Boat is a C&C 38 with a very bendy mast -10 rod rig, single lower shrowd and a babystay treminating at the 1st spreader. Babystay can already put a lot of rake and prevent pumping. The inner forestay was reccomended to prevent further pumping in the middle section of the mast and also to have means of balancing the boat while offshore shorthanded in gale force winds. The inner forestay is attached to the deck via ABI quick release and a base leading through to a chainplate bolted onto a reinforced v-birth bulkhead.

petar
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