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**Dockhead** · 13-10-2017, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I really don't care what people have.... even if it is a cat with in mast furling...

I've crewed on a delivery with in mast ( 58 foot Benny ) and my first boat ( a Vertue ) had around the boom furling which I never ever used..

I'm happy with what I have... I was just responding to the OP as to why I would not have in mast... you don't have to own a Lada to know the reasons you don't want a Lada.

DH... dunno what they think about Aerorig.... haven't actually met up with either of them since 2009....

However the boat in SG is waiting - as we are - for a bit of wx to bugger off so maybe we will meet up in a few weeks...

Over the years there have been a cupla big ones down here... the late Peter Blake's 'Seamaster'(?) and this Brazilian one 'Parati'(?)

So... seems they work..

The Aerorig looks really interesting. I'd love to hear how it works.

Another rig innovation which looks interesting to me is the Hoyt jib boom. The owner of KM Yachts has one on his personal yacht - showed it to me last year. Swears by it. Says it totally transforms trimming the jib.

daletournier · 13-10-2017, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dale, don't you see? I was not giving an opinion on in mast furling per se, I was saying that I do not have to have personal experience with one to know that I don't want to have it on my boat at this time in my life. Vicarious experience, and the ability to learn from it is a valuable human resource.

For me, the performance issue is real. We've had a number of folks who have said something like "I'm a cruiser and the performance loss is outweighed by the convenience gain". Most of them have not sailed a similar boat with a good conventional mainsail in order to determine just how severe the performance loss is, yet their opinion is accepted as reasonable. This seems pretty analogous to my thought processes.

At any rate, my post was a comment on the "all the opinions disparaging towards IMF are invalid because they come from folks who don't own one" idea. It was not a comment upon IMF pro or con. And of course I've seen plenty of successful boats with IMF, sailors who use them skillfully and without jams. They are happy, and I'm happy for them, but this does not mean I should have one myself, nor that I should not express that fact here on CF.

Jim

Fair enough Jim.
Regarding performance you and Dh amongst others are most likely correct, it makes sense really, more sail, better shape, and more control, but as you also said unless we compare the same boats in the same conditions one doesn't truly know how great the difference is, this may seem argumentative but it's not.

I would of definitely 100% agreed the performance difference would be great But! When searching for my current boat I researched quite a few different brands and models, one was the Jeanneau 49ds. I come across the a forum where to friends purchased exactly the same boat (49) but one had inmast furling and one had slab reefing main. They sailed together alot, not racers, the conclusion was there was surprisingly little difference. The slab reefing one was faster but not a great deal. Now this isn't my experience, I'm only passing on what I read, but it's the only time I've come across a direct comparison. It made me question how much of a difference is there in the real cruising environment, over varying conditions? Not sure there would be alot.
So for me personally I'm not convinced the lesser performance would be that significant when it comes to my style cruising. But really I don't know.

Anyone else out there actually had the opportunity to sail the same boat with the two different main setups? Be good to hear from them.

daletournier · 13-10-2017, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The Aerorig looks really interesting. I'd love to hear how it works.

Another rig innovation which looks interesting to me is the Hoyt jib boom. The owner of KM Yachts has one on his personal yacht - showed it to me last year. Swears by it. Says it totally transforms trimming the jib.

BTW I like the aero rig. I had a carbon fiber stay less rig on the last boat and had several comments over the years from sailors "I wouldn't be comfortable with one of those" one guy even admitted he'd lost his mast once but then went on to explain why he wouldn't trust my rig. Of course I pointed out to him"so you know yours can break, you don't know mine can, but you don't trust mine"

Strange creatures us humans. Anyway I I digress, back to the show.

daletournier · 13-10-2017, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The Aerorig looks really interesting. I'd love to hear how it works.

Another rig innovation which looks interesting to me is the Hoyt jib boom. The owner of KM Yachts has one on his personal yacht - showed it to me last year. Swears by it. Says it totally transforms trimming the jib.

I'm also a fan of the jib boom, I was only researching them last week.

**Don C L** · 13-10-2017, 20:16

I'd love to try that balanced jib boom. See? Now there is some newer technology I don't use but would like to try!

daletournier · 13-10-2017, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

By George I think you've got it!

They could have used pack mules, land rovers, or all terrain vehicles. But the ones who decided to use camels, will argue to death that camels are the only way to go.

Same with those who have laid out 1000s upon 1000s for inmast furling. How could they possibly manage a sail that large while holding a beer otherwise? ;-)

But Rod how do you not see that your argument also applies to you? Your reasoning suggests that if our view differs from yours then we are only defending our "widget or way of doing things" to protect our ego attachment of that choice, if this is the case then so are you! As I said earlier you can't have it both ways, dismissing others views due to a typical human flaw, a flaw that your apparently exempt from! How's that work? See the problem?

Uncle Bob · 13-10-2017, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by alctel

The OP is the only person I think I've heard say anything positive about in-boom furling ever

Don't get out much??
My boat came with a leisure furl boom and once I learned to use it correctly life is easy.

DeepFrz · 13-10-2017, 20:46

Well Dockhead, I can assure you that there was another inmast vs. anything else thread before the last one and the one before that and probably the one before that one. That's just the way it goes here it seems.

**Dockhead** · 14-10-2017, 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier

Fair enough Jim.
Regarding performance you and Dh amongst others are most likely correct, it makes sense really, more sail, better shape, and more control, but as you also said unless we compare the same boats in the same conditions one doesn't truly know how great the difference is, this may seem argumentative but it's not.

I would of definitely 100% agreed the performance difference would be great But! When searching for my current boat I researched quite a few different brands and models, one was the Jeanneau 49ds. I come across the a forum where to friends purchased exactly the same boat (49) but one had inmast furling and one had slab reefing main. They sailed together alot, not racers, the conclusion was there was surprisingly little difference. The slab reefing one was faster but not a great deal. Now this isn't my experience, I'm only passing on what I read, but it's the only time I've come across a direct comparison. It made me question how much of a difference is there in the real cruising environment, over varying conditions? Not sure there would be alot.
So for me personally I'm not convinced the lesser performance would be that significant when it comes to my style cruising. But really I don't know.

Anyone else out there actually had the opportunity to sail the same boat with the two different main setups? Be good to hear from them.

The crucial difference is ROACH. Roach is not just more sail area. Roach gives a completely disproportionate amount of drive when sailing upwind. To my simple mind it seems that this is perhaps because the part of the sail near the luff is backwinded to some extent by the jib, and the roachy part is sticking out in the air stream doing all the work. I'm sure it's not as simple as that, but whatever the aerodynamic cause, the effect is definitely there.

But if you don't sail much upwind, like most cruisers, you won't notice the lack of roach nearly so much.

And if you use Dacron sails, you won't notice as much, at least not after the first 1000 miles.

**Dockhead** · 14-10-2017, 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Well Dockhead, I can assure you that there was another inmast vs. anything else thread before the last one and the one before that and probably the one before that one. That's just the way it goes here it seems.

Yep. And even I have joined in

Whoever said it's like the old farts in the yacht club talking about the same thing over and over again, week after week -- was probably spot on.

Caliber40 · 14-10-2017, 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltasailor

My mainsail looks as good as new BUT it is a pig to furl in or out.
I know now it has stretched but it took a frustrating season to find that out. Give me slab reefing any time.

As you gain more sailing experience you'll learn how to recognize a stretched sail sooner.

**Pete7** · 14-10-2017, 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Most of them have not sailed a similar boat with a good conventional mainsail in order to determine just how severe the performance loss is, yet their opinion is accepted as reasonable. This seems pretty analogous to my thought processes.

But is it a severe performance loss? I disagree. As DH points out, if you don't sail much to windward you may not notice. This certainly applies to us, we won't bash into a F5 for very long. Whilst it might feel exciting with the rail in the water, spray across the deck, yacht leaning over further than a medieval Italian building, both SWMBO and the dog are not so keen and its hard on the body after a while. Have you seen what happens when a pan of spaghetti comes off the stove and goes down the back of the cooker into the bilge and how long it took to get soggy spaghetti all out before it blocked the pumps

So as a cruising yacht we are really interested in reaching and running. When we raise the sails, spend a bit of time trimming (often making things worse) we are then close to hull speed, I am not sure were this severe performance loss is, or how much? a knot or even 2 knots? Perhaps worth mentioning we have a masthead rig, so the main is quite small to start with. I am just not convinced adding say 10% of roach would achieve much. If I wanted best bang for the buck then fitting a £1000 folding prop will guarantee 3/4 of a knot on all points of sail for the same cost as a slab main.

For us, the convenience of quickly putting the main away when coastal sailing or quickly reefing as we round a headland to find stronger winds is worth any small loss in speed or pointing ability. Sailing on a long passage you might not change the sail settings all day. Coastal sailing, stopping for lunch and a swim might mean a dozen changes and several in and outs.

Pete

**Pete7** · 14-10-2017, 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltasailor

My mainsail looks as good as new BUT it is a pig to furl in or out.
I know now it has stretched but it took a frustrating season to find that out. Give me slab reefing any time.

One of the advantages to IMF is the sail is nicely rolled away inside the mast and protected from the weather and sun 6 days a week rather than scrunched up in a bag slowly filling with rain water. So even when old, ours was 16 years old when I changed, it still looked in good condition. A slab reefed main would look like an old rag in a back street garage by then. However, like yours, ours had stretched and you could actually see it in each cross cut panel and the nasty hook in the leech

This is down to the choice of fabric and age rather than the type of reefing. Change to Hydranet or Vectran and you probably won't buy another main for that yacht ever again, but it won't be cheap.

Pete

Bash · 14-10-2017, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Are we really going to do this all over again just a couple of weeks later? Traditional Main vs In-mast Furling - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Hello Dockhead. Just returning to the forum after a few years off to write a book. Nice to see I haven't really missed anything.

Folks, learning to shorten sail is a skill regardless of the specific mechanism employed. Learn the skill and you won't have problems other than for rare mechanical gear failure. Learn to maintain mechanical gear and you'll significantly reduce failure in that area as well.

In the 10.5 years I've sailed my current boat with Selden in-mast furling, the only failure I've experienced was blowing out the clew block on the OEM sail. The dacron threads had rotted in the sun, and the lesson was quickly learned with a little help from a local sail loft. Otherwise, it's all been smooth sailing because I can shorten sail to any size at any time without leaving the cockpit. Slick.