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Old 15-05-2018, 06:38   #16
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Jumper cable trick....
Quench the heated fastener with penetrating oil. Try to remove the fastener with an impact driver, either manual or power. Repeat the process till you break the fastener loose....
Question - do you use the impact driver while the bolt is still very hot? No risk of breaking the head?
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Old 15-05-2018, 07:54   #17
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

That’s a very poor design with the tang riding on the thread of the stud not on the shoulder or is it part way out in the pic? Also that stud doesn’t look cracked to me but does have some corrosion issue it appears.

How are your chainplates?
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Old 15-05-2018, 08:41   #18
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
MAPP gas burns I think around 3,000f. Most aluminum alloys melt around 1400f if memory serves, so be careful.
You may want to drop by a welding shop and buy a “melt stick” it’s like a candle with different melting temps, or now that I think about it this is another use for your IR temp gun.
I think some alloys of aluminum will lose their heat threat if heated to about 1000f. Not sure, but surely you don’t need to get the aluminum hotter than a couple of hundred?

Actually it looks like you can anneal aluminum alloys as low as 600f
Aluminum Alloys Annealing - TM Technologies
Yeah, you dont want to get it real hot, just some heat and impact.
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Old 15-05-2018, 09:12   #19
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

Roverhi and candle guy... that is some real "men" s$it. Love those bag of tricks. Last week someone mentioned the 'nut' buster. One of the reasons to read this forum daily.
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Old 15-05-2018, 09:45   #20
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

Vinegar works as well as Kroil or PB. Heat soak use impact wrench
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Old 15-05-2018, 10:02   #21
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Had a similar problem with a 3/8" bolt in my self steering vane. Used the jumper cable trick to alternately heat and then quench with penetrating oil and an impact wrench to get the bolt to turn. Would turh minutely at first but the range of rotation gradually increased over a period of a few days till it finally came out. Hit the bolt 3-4 times a day over a period of three days. Gave the penetrating oil some time to soak in. Reinstall with Lanacote so it won't happen again.

Jumper cable trick.
You might try the jumper cable trick. Hook jumper cables up to the battery as you normally would. On the other end put a bolt (1/4" x 2" bolt works fine) in the postive lead clamp of the jumper cable. Clamp the negative lead as close to the offending bolt as possible. Touch the bolt in the positive lead clamp to the head of the fastener. You set up what is essentially an arc welder. Will heat the fastener to a cherry red if left in contact long enough. It also gets the fastener way hotter than you can with a MAPP torch. It works really well to heat up just the area of the fastener and not burning up the surrounding country side like you do with a torch. Really the only way to get serious heat to a fastener if there is painted surfaces or plastics close by. Quench the heated fastener with penetrating oil. Try to remove the fastener with an impact driver, either manual or power. Repeat the process till you break the fastener loose. Other than using the trick to remove all the fasteners on a 44 year old mast, used it to get corrosion welded bolts out that passed through substantial aluminum castings on my self steering vane.

Having said the above, the hardest fastener to remove is not one that is threaded into aluminum but one that simply passes through an aluminum casting like cleats, etc. Getting the bolts out of the self steering casting took something north of 25 iterations, heating with the jumper cable and quenching with penetrating oil over many days. A good idea to coat the shaft of any fastener in aluminum cleats or castings with Lanocote.


GEES...GREAT IDEA!!! I was told some years ago that a welder worked just as you describe but I have no welder. Never thought of using a battery. And yes, others will suggest different means of heating such as using a torch. But a torch will not concentrate the heat like your method and can result in burning paint off whatever is being heated.
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Old 15-05-2018, 10:10   #22
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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I think I'll do the head gun or MAP gas, and wax or parafin, with hammer and torque.

As far as batteries exploding....You cannot treat something like a black box and think it will explode. Things don't just explode. Hydrogen explodes. Lithium explodes....now you have to consider what contributes to volatile circumstance. If you don't want to describe precisely what takes place to cause an explosion when you draw 500A out of the battery, please don't spread the panic.
Battery has cold cranking amps rating. I would imagine that it has been tested extensively, at those current draws without explosion. Otherwise nobody would ever start the engine. I could limit the current to CCA rating by using longer 1/0 AWG welding cable and clamp on meter to know whats being drawn. This would not risk any adverse behavior if there are any.
1 minute sounds like a lot. At 600A that would be 10AH.
A dead short on a charged battery will not just draw a few hundred amps. It will draw thousands of amps. The electrolyte will boil and it could explode. If it explodes acid could be thrown everywhere, including someones eyes.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO GIVE ADVICE THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BURN OR BLIND SOMEONE?
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Old 15-05-2018, 11:34   #23
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
MAPP gas burns I think around 3,000f. Most aluminum alloys melt around 1400f if memory serves, so be careful.
You may want to drop by a welding shop and buy a “melt stick” it’s like a candle with different melting temps, or now that I think about it this is another use for your IR temp gun.
I think some alloys of aluminum will lose their heat threat if heated to about 1000f. Not sure, but surely you don’t need to get the aluminum hotter than a couple of hundred?

Actually it looks like you can anneal aluminum alloys as low as 600f
Aluminum Alloys Annealing - TM Technologies
Thank you. That sounds like a very useful item to control temps.
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Old 15-05-2018, 16:28   #24
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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DO YOU REALLY WANT TO GIVE ADVICE THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BURN OR BLIND SOMEONE?
Yep, because it works when nothing else will. You don't need to have the jumper cables attached for more than a minute and unless you keep repeating the cycle with very little time in between over many iterations the batteries won't heat up and boil off hydrogen in any significant quantity. Yes you should be careful and exposing the batteries if they are in an unvented area would be a good idea.

People actually weld using car batteries as a power source. That's way way more stress on the batteries than heating up a bolt. Off-Road Emergency Welding | Danger Ranger Bear
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Old 15-05-2018, 16:47   #25
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

Taking the winter tires off recently and ran into a lug that would not budge. Got out my 30" steel pipe, slipped it over the wrench...wrench was bending but lug did not budge.

Went to the garage that installed my winter tires with their blasted air powered impact wrenches...still no effect! Then he changed the setting to TIGHTEN! This worked. Broke whatever seal was holding lug to bolt and then it came off. Gladly gave him $10 for that trick.
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Old 15-05-2018, 18:48   #26
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

As pointed out upthread: batteries disassociate oxygen and hydrogen when charging, not when discharging. Hydrogen exploding is what causes batteries to blow up.

Let's not fear monger here on CF... the gov does enough to cover us!

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Old 07-06-2018, 19:31   #27
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

So I torched up one bolt pretty good today. I had the nut at the end, and the nut was glowing red. But it was windy, so i couldnt tell how much of that heat propagated up about 3/4" to get to the spot. At this point idk if it's ceized at the side I took the tang off or on the side tang is still there
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Old 07-06-2018, 19:43   #28
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

It was map gas. I have white powder coat on the mast so I can't really come right in. I'm torching the bold and a nut at the and and the hope was heat will rise.
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Old 13-07-2018, 19:12   #29
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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Yep, because it works when nothing else will. You don't need to have the jumper cables attached for more than a minute and unless you keep repeating the cycle with very little time in between over many iterations the batteries won't heat up and boil off hydrogen in any significant quantity. Yes you should be careful and exposing the batteries if they are in an unvented area would be a good idea.

People actually weld using car batteries as a power source. That's way way more stress on the batteries than heating up a bolt. Off-Road Emergency Welding | Danger Ranger Bear
So I finnaly got some time to spend on this. How big were the bolts you got out? I melted the 6AWG jumper cables in the process. The problem with jumper cables is the resistance.
Resistance of cable increases as it get smaller. So bolt being 5/8" has smallest resistance in the loop. Therefore smallest chance to heat up. I tried with 2AWG battery cables and they also started melting right at the crimp I used to transfer the current onto the tang. Tang bolt got warm but only at the place where the transfer bolt was touching. Battery barely got warm to the touch. C&D Technologies 100AH UPS AGM battery.

So I feel that if I am to use the battery trick, I would need cables and connections to be lesser resistance than the resistance of the 5/8" tang bolt. So cables with larger diameter than 5/8" or at least close to it. I guess maybe use few 3/0 cables in parallel and crimp ring terminal ends and connect to battery. So at this point I am switching gears.



Few days ago we also used a 1/2" drive impact wrench and it managed to tear off welded nut and didnt even twist or move the tang bolt.

We also hit it with a 6' sledge hammer while nut was still there. A lot of oxidation started comming off from area between bolt and tube. Thats a good thing as i can soak it in penetrating oil. So if I had to guess, the entire 8" length is ceased to aluminum tube.



I think i am going to try drilling them out next with a jig. Either portable drill press from a friend tomorrow or hand drill guide. I ordered Milescraft 1318 AccuDrill Mate.


I started by hand and got about 2" deep with 3/16 drill bit. It looks pretty centered and vertical. I know I need a guide to continue. I am used to drilling stainless, just never 8" deep bore. My rigger said that if i get the hole to 1/2" or maybe even 3/8" tang bolt will collapse as I try to punch it out with an impact hammer.
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Old 19-07-2018, 07:27   #30
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Re: Seized tang bolts in aluminum mast

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So I finnaly got some time to spend on this. How big were the bolts you got out? I melted the 6AWG jumper cables in the process. The problem with jumper cables is the resistance.
Resistance of cable increases as it get smaller. So bolt being 5/8" has smallest resistance in the loop. Therefore smallest chance to heat up. I tried with 2AWG battery cables and they also started melting right at the crimp I used to transfer the current onto the tang. Tang bolt got warm but only at the place where the transfer bolt was touching. Battery barely got warm to the touch. C&D Technologies 100AH UPS AGM battery.

So I feel that if I am to use the battery trick, I would need cables and connections to be lesser resistance than the resistance of the 5/8" tang bolt. So cables with larger diameter than 5/8" or at least close to it. I guess maybe use few 3/0 cables in parallel and crimp ring terminal ends and connect to battery. So at this point I am switching gears.



Few days ago we also used a 1/2" drive impact wrench and it managed to tear off welded nut and didnt even twist or move the tang bolt.

We also hit it with a 6' sledge hammer while nut was still there. A lot of oxidation started comming off from area between bolt and tube. Thats a good thing as i can soak it in penetrating oil. So if I had to guess, the entire 8" length is ceased to aluminum tube.



I think i am going to try drilling them out next with a jig. Either portable drill press from a friend tomorrow or hand drill guide. I ordered Milescraft 1318 AccuDrill Mate.


I started by hand and got about 2" deep with 3/16 drill bit. It looks pretty centered and vertical. I know I need a guide to continue. I am used to drilling stainless, just never 8" deep bore. My rigger said that if i get the hole to 1/2" or maybe even 3/8" tang bolt will collapse as I try to punch it out with an impact hammer.
Update. I tried drilling the bolt alone and after drilling about 6.5" deep into stainless bolt on one side and about 5" deep into same stainless bolt from the other side i realized that the two drill holes have missed. Holes were 1/4" one one side and i went up to 3/8" diameter on the other side. Compression tube ia 8.5" long and mast width is 8". I setup a 10" drill press bit tollerance of drilling was nowhere near required. No wonder i missed. 14 hours wasted.

New direction was to drill out the aluminum compression tubes and fabricate new ones. That came out rather easy with a 1-5/8" hole saw. ID is 1.5" and fit snugly around aluminum tube.

While i still think heat and cold with penetrating oil might have been able to do the trick, problem was how to get heat to the middle section of the bolt. Thats 4" deep into aluminum tube.

That bolt is ceized to the tube the entire length. Click image for larger version

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