Sails, Why Pay Double? What am I missing?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

Cruisingscotts

Probably not the same as custom, but the Sailrite sail is likely as good a design as all of the "production" sails coming out of the factories in China.
I expect most, if not all, of the sails built offshore are cut to virtually identical CAD specs. With a good sail making book, a tough machine like Sailrite's, the time and desire, one could make a better sail with their kit than many of those coming out of the factories.

First, you might want to re-read post 57 above. Dave Calvert, a honest-to-gawd sailmaker, has made several telling points about far eastern source sails. Seems that they can indeed be well made... but not at the very bottom of the price structure. Good sailcloth costs a lot no matter who stitches it up.

But in reference to "kit" sails made at home, well, having done some amateur sailmaking long before kits were available, the real issues are those of space, and of having a machine with a big enough throat to handle a lot of bulk, often poorly managed due to lack of above mentioned space.

Small sails, and somewhat larger ones made of nylon can be handled, but bigger ones, say a few hundred sq ft, are a bugger; without a loft floor and a pit-mounted machine they are awfully hard to handle. My own experience, for a 30 foot S&S, were a 3/4 oz kite and a 10 oz storm jib. One was big, but very light and tractable material. The other was stiff and intractable, but quite small. I won a lot of races flying the kite, and had all too many voyaging miles with the storm jib... both successful. I have not been tempted to make sails for the succeeding 36 and 46 foot boats that I have owned!

Jim

[bcboomer]

Jim Cate

Your experience is likely why I've only seen reports on building spinnaker kits for cruising boats. Seldom hear of anyone building their own main or genoa and I've never heard of it being done on a boat.

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

The sails on our boat are completely shot, main Dacron is around 20 years old and really pooched out. Got a quote from North and all the guy wanted to do was keep up-selling the laminated sails. He refused to tell me what Dacron they used or where they got them. Got a quote from Quantum and was a bit cheaper but he answered all my questions and was very detailed about the Dacron material. Getting them installed in a few months. There were a few threads here recommending a sailmaker in the PNW, I believe she frequents this site. If my boat was in Seattle I would look her up.

Hasse & Company dba Port Townsend Sails. Carol focuses on and makes great cruising sails which are excellent and hold up very well, but are not inexpensive. A lot of hand stitching for rings and such; they do not do laminate materials.

[Cruisingscotts]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

Cruisingscotts

Probably not the same as custom, but the Sailrite sail is likely as good a design as all of the "production" sails coming out of the factories in China.
I expect most, if not all, of the sails built offshore are cut to virtually identical CAD specs. With a good sail making book, a tough machine like Sailrite's, the time and desire, one could make a better sail with their kit than many of those coming out of the factories.

Jim Cate pretty much covered it, not a slight against sailrite, just a matter of the right tools and space, a sailrite sail will be designed with it's construction capable by its machine, there is a limit to what you can do there. And since this thread needs to go on and on and on........although people will poo poo it, sail cloth characteristics were changed specifically to enable CNC cutting of panels eliminating the ability to buy cloth with a soft hand. I was taught this characteristic was important In the longevity of a cruising sail resisting wear and holding shape. I would argue it would take some serious doing to be able to loft a 3 dimensional foil shape by hand for a novice from a book, but I'm sure it can be done if that is what you wanted to do.

[Olorin]

Mack Sails gets our vote.
When we were looking for a new cruising main and jib they provided the best price although we weren't looking offshore at the time. They provided a wealth of knowledge. They had built sails for our sister ships and both the brothers came up to our marina to measure the boat. We're in Australia now so we know they work.

[Paul J. Nolan]

A good sailor knows what he wants and from whom to purchase it. Probably.has known his (her) sailmaker for years, maybe decades.

The other 85-90% of people who own boats with masts should buy their sails from the lowest bidder. They couldn't recognize the difference between North's best Starboat main and a bedsheet, provided both are white. You could lay down the seam curves backward on their sails and they'd never notice anything amiss. As long as the sails fit the spars and don't rip from luff to leech, they're happy. They don't use their sails a hundred hours in a year and a single dollar spent beyond low bid is a dollar squandered.

To the original poster: you asked my advice. Buy the Tasker sails. You'll be completely satisfied and save yourself money.

Paul

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by Cruisingscotts

Jim Cate pretty much covered it, not a slight against sailrite, just a matter of the right tools and space, a sailrite sail will be designed with it's construction capable by its machine, there is a limit to what you can do there. And since this thread needs to go on and on and on........although people will poo poo it, sail cloth characteristics were changed specifically to enable CNC cutting of panels eliminating the ability to buy cloth with a soft hand. I was taught this characteristic was important In the longevity of a cruising sail resisting wear and holding shape. I would argue it would take some serious doing to be able to loft a 3 dimensional foil shape by hand for a novice from a book, but I'm sure it can be done if that is what you wanted to do.

Actually you can still buy cloth with a soft hand - Dimension Polyant FTO finish, and it can be computer cut and assembled without issue.

Regarding sails coming out of China, there are European owned and managed factories who build OEM sails for lofts all over the world big and small but do NOT sell direct to the pubic as in most cases each sail is computer designed by the sailmaker ordering the sail.

Then there are smaller Chinese owned and run lofts in HK making only simple cruising sails as they have done for years past. Its important to note the difference.

Sails from the cheap cruising manufacturers might have lasted 20 years, if you brought them 20 years ago, but the cheap cloth today is far below the quality it used to be.

A good friend of mine owns a repair loft here so we get to see it all.

[captnandy]

Hi - someone asked about Fareast Sails. I have a mainsail made by them, it's about five years old now. I've been very satisfied with the build quality, stitching, detailing. I've just had a cruising chute made and delivered, but we've not tested it yet (still winter here!). In my experience you get very good service (of course, only via email), quick response and good quality products at a low price. The price quoted is for the sail delivered to your door - I found it difficult to get the same quote from Rolly Tasker as they only quoted for the sail manufacture without delivery, which they wouldn't quote for until made. I have also had a yankee from Jeckell's in UK - the quality was good, but it wasn't cheap and I can't say I got any better service. As many others have stated, these Chinese lofts are working for the big international brands who then attach their own logos to the finished sails, even if they don't like to admit this. Due to their high turnover, they are able to invest in the latest equipment and facilities, leading to efficient working methods and so the ability to offer lower prices. Sure I'd be happy to buy from a local sailmaker, but I want my little money to go towards my sailing, not to pay some extra 1000's towards his!

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

A good sailor knows what he wants and from whom to purchase it. Probably.has known his (her) sailmaker for years, maybe decades.

The other 85-90% of people who own boats with masts should buy their sails from the lowest bidder. They couldn't recognize the difference between North's best Starboat main and a bedsheet, provided both are white. You could lay down the seam curves backward on their sails and they'd never notice anything amiss. As long as the sails fit the spars and don't rip from luff to leech, they're happy. They don't use their sails a hundred hours in a year and a single dollar spent beyond low bid is a dollar squandered.

To the original poster: you asked my advice. Buy the Tasker sails. You'll be completely satisfied and save yourself money.



Paul

English is my first language but sometimes I do not fully understand what people say or write so to clarify are saying if you have not known a sailmaker for years or decades you are not a good sailor.
Really?

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by captnandy

Hi - someone asked about Fareast Sails. I have a mainsail made by them, it's about five years old now. I've been very satisfied with the build quality, stitching, detailing. I've just had a cruising chute made and delivered, but we've not tested it yet (still winter here!). In my experience you get very good service (of course, only via email), quick response and good quality products at a low price. The price quoted is for the sail delivered to your door - I found it difficult to get the same quote from Rolly Tasker as they only quoted for the sail manufacture without delivery, which they wouldn't quote for until made. I have also had a yankee from Jeckell's in UK - the quality was good, but it wasn't cheap and I can't say I got any better service. As many others have stated, these Chinese lofts are working for the big international brands who then attach their own logos to the finished sails, even if they don't like to admit this. Due to their high turnover, they are able to invest in the latest equipment and facilities, leading to efficient working methods and so the ability to offer lower prices. Sure I'd be happy to buy from a local sailmaker, but I want my little money to go towards my sailing, not to pay some extra 1000's towards his!

I don't think you'll find Chinese lofts like Far East making sails for any big international brands sorry. As I said in the post above the big manufacturers in China don't sell direct to the public.

[CarlF]

I believe China Sails are the guys who build a lot of the sails for most of the big name sailmakers (Not Mack). Claim to be the biggest sailmaker in the world. There was a magazine piece about them a few years ago. Two shift operation. Each order has custom specs for the sailmaker brand (webbing size, rings, etc.). I imagine the quality is very good.

I've ben told the US sailmakers make the sailbags in the US to claim "made in their loft". Not sure if this is true but I've learned to be suspisious when Chinese manufacturing is involved.

CSF the sailmakers' sailmaker

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

English is my first language but sometimes I do not fully understand what people say or write so to clarify are saying if you have not known a sailmaker for years or decades you are not a good sailor.
Really?

As I'm sure you know, the point was simply that by the time you've developed real sailing skills you've been around long enough to know who makes what.

Likewise, the poster suggesting that most boat owners should buy the cheapest sails is also correct, imo. Serious sailors already know about sails made in Asia. It's been that way for many, many years.

[fryewe]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

What about the thread?

Double stitched? single? triple?

In my experience, first points of failure on sails are stitching. The best cloth is a rag unless the stitching is well done using quality thread.

Anyone along the northern GOM should consider calling Hunter at Schurr Sails in Pensacola for your sail needs. No affiliation...just a very satisfied customer.

[a64pilot]

I just bought a 125% Genoa and a Staysail from Mack Sails.
First if you catch them at the right time of year, say just before Christmas when work is slow and come is with a couple of estimates form the competition, he will give you a good price.
Secondly if you have a somewhat common boat like my IP, then they have done several and know what will work, example 125% is as big as I can reasonably go with my Genoa due to the tracks, but 125% works well. I also had my Staysail built out of heavy fabric as I consider it my Stormsail, so both my sails were sort of custom.

They fit better than my OEM sails, which astonished me, my Staysail is significantly larger than the OEM due to the fit being perfect.

My sails were original to the boat, and surprisingly in good condition, I'm keeping them as spares, they needed no repairs.
But the difference in sailing is rather remarkable, the old sails while being in "good" condition, had lost significant performance.

I'm new at this, but my take on it is , sails are not a place to save money, I'm a cheap guy, motivation to do almost all my own work often stems from being cheap.
But, I am sure glad now that I didn't cheap out on my sails

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

But the difference in sailing is rather remarkable, the old sails while being in "good" condition, had lost significant performance.

I bet you would be able to say this about sails from anywhere.