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Old 16-02-2019, 11:49   #16
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pirate Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

I would go for the ketch option.. downwind the three sails winged out.
Easy enough to gaff her with a Wharram style top boom..
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Old 16-02-2019, 12:55   #17
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Most of your sailing will be downwind--and the best sail of all for that is the square sail. You could make them up yourself from sailcloth or awning material, because being square they require no skill other than the ability to sew in bolt ropes and to sew in rings and eyelets. One could even buy a load cover of vinyl, reinforce the edge seams and use it as a square sail. One could even add pockets and fit bamboo stiffeners, as is done in a junk rig--which is another possibility for you to consider. A junk rig has much to commend it.

The spars one makes fastened to a sail track bridle (use two or more cars or parrels) so the cross-spars can be raised and lowered, and in the days of sailing ships some of them used furlers in the middle of the spars to avoid going aloft to take in sail.

For your small ship, brailing the sails might be sufficient, by lowering the top cross spar to sit on top of the lower, with the sail doubled and hanging loosely until the squall has passed. You can get away with this because most of the sail will not be rubbing on anything, being behind the mast in clear air.

The beauty of this idea is one can can try it out by making a cheap prototype using made up wooden spars or perhaps aluminum irrigation line bought cheaply from a second hand farm supplier. To the ends of the spars one must fit the control lines by which the angle of the sail to the wind is adjusted. as the spars, and tie the control lines to the .
If the idea does not work for you, or works but requires larger sails than you can handle safely by yourself, then you still have a nice awning and the rails by which it can be deployed.

Then you can go to Plan B--which is a pair of lowerable aluminium bipod masts and two nice big crab-claw sails, where the centre of effort of both sails will be well above all of the deck house turbulence and other obstructions, and comparatively small sails will make a significant difference to your fuel costs.

The other advantage of fore-and-aft spread sails is the roll-dampening effect they have when drawing.
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Old 16-02-2019, 14:23   #18
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

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Originally Posted by Tillerjockey View Post
Check with one of the used sail brokers like sail warehouse. A sock is a definite plus making it easy to to set and stow. You can fly a conventional spinnaker without a pole close to dead downwind but won't be able to reach effectively with it. An asymmetric is best for any reaching heading. You'll also make better time reaching and jibing than you would sailing dead downwind, unless you have the engine on. Get as close to a 180% sail to maximize your light air performance.
We'll always have the engine running, unless there's some mechanical reason we can't. Heading south down the West coast you can count on a NW wind, so a broad reach is likely, and when we sailed to Hawaii years ago from Eureka, the same. Delfin has a 7.5' draft, very full keel, so should track ok on that point of sail. She also heaves to quite nicely, which is probably irrelevant but might mean the aft pilot house will provide sufficient balance to a head sail without a mizzen. That mast is so short, as is the boom, I doubt it would provide much power. When I restored her I added the mizzen because the original had one. It's used now only to off load the sailing dinghy.

I did spend some time looking at used sail inventory, but everything I found with such a short luff also had a short foot, so a custom built asymmetrical sail may well be there easiest to implement option.

Many thanks for all the input!
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Old 16-02-2019, 14:24   #19
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Forgot to mention she is also stabilized, so roll damping isn't much of a need.....
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Old 16-02-2019, 15:22   #20
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

I agree that gaff rigged makes the most sense. It will not only give you the most canvas but it'll just look right.
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Old 16-02-2019, 16:59   #21
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Interesting masts set-up! Can you find out who decided on that mast configuration, and what they had in mind to use the masts for?
A sprit might be the easiest way to get sail area on these masts. Much easier to install and to raise a sail than a gaff. A line down from a good strong point up the mast would raise the top end ofthe luff, no need for hoops on the mast, let alone a mast-track, and provide the fwd tension needed to keep the top of the (quadrilateral) sail reasonably tight.. The sprit could also be used as a derrick if required.
Thames barges illustrate this idea well (though you would not want to bother with tops'ls and jibs (see attached)
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Old 16-02-2019, 17:28   #22
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

The sprit rig is a good idea. A lug rig might also work. Pretty easy to set up.
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Old 16-02-2019, 18:51   #23
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Many years ago we used twin Yankees poled out on a boat similar to yours. She could take large Hawaiian winds and took us to Tahiti saving a ton of fuel.
We interlaced the piston hanks and used one halyard to raise them. They were short luffed and long footed and worked well.
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Old 17-02-2019, 16:33   #24
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Junk sail comes to mind. Rather naturally as our Colvin Gazelle GAIA is junk rigged (-:. The sail would be fully battened and boomless. No Flogging. Jibing is easy peasy. The sails on our schooner rig are double sheeted that is SB and Port sheets running through blocks. Each batten us attached to the sheets via sheetlets which controls twist. No winches. This arrangement allows us to set the foresail amidhips while the mainsail does the work thus stopping the rolling although with stabilizers not an issue for you. We can sail wing on wing butterfly fashion if the swell allows. Our masts are unstayed which allows the sails to be set best for dead downwind saling. Allowing the sails to go further forward of the mast adds balance.

Reefing is child's play and sails can be raised and lowered on course regardless of wind direction.

Sails are quite flat and thus easy and cheap to make.

Of course they should be tan coloured which would look nice on Delfin (-:

Junk rigs are ideal off the wind.

I could recommend literature for you if you are interested .

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Old 18-02-2019, 08:52   #25
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

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Interesting masts set-up! Can you find out who decided on that mast configuration, and what they had in mind to use the masts for?
A sprit might be the easiest way to get sail area on these masts. Much easier to install and to raise a sail than a gaff. A line down from a good strong point up the mast would raise the top end ofthe luff, no need for hoops on the mast, let alone a mast-track, and provide the fwd tension needed to keep the top of the (quadrilateral) sail reasonably tight.. The sprit could also be used as a derrick if required.
Thames barges illustrate this idea well (though you would not want to bother with tops'ls and jibs (see attached)
I think that's a good idea, but I'm trying to keep away from changing any rigging. Mostly because the engine is mechanically pretty bullet proof, the prop is well protected, so the likelihood of a mechanical failure is small, so adding any complexity isn't appealing. At the end of the day, I'm looking for a bit of a reduction in fuel use (she has a 7,000 mile range), and an option for "getting home" in the case of a mechanical failure.

The positioning of the masts was initially set by the builders in the 60's. I believe they mimic the mast position that were used on this hull (the Romsdal yard has been building the same form since the 1860's) when vessels like this were used in the herring fishery in the North Sea. Getting the Boston Whaler off the foredeck works well with this main mast placement, and I stuck a mizzen on both for appearance's sake, but also as a way of getting dinghies off the top deck. They aren't moving....

Below is a photo of her after I bought her in 2003 and before I stuck the masts back on. Looks kind of naked without them, IMO.
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Old 18-02-2019, 10:41   #26
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Quote: "Interesting masts set-up! Can you find out who decided on that mast configuration, and what they had in mind to use the masts for?"

Like for many "trawler yachts" a lot of the sales appeal of the Romsdals is rooted in nostalgia. As Delfin sez, the hull form is of some antiquity by now, and as I said in a prior post, the hull form is that of fishing vessels ranging from Scowegia to the Faeroes and Iceland. It endures because it evolved "organically" from the operational requirements for "keeping the sea" in those difficult waters. As engines supplanted sail as the motive force at the beginning of the 1900s, the traditional rigging appropriate to sailing craft became vestigial, and as fishing technology "improved", and weightier and weightier catches had to be taken aboard while the vessel rolled and pitched in seas generated by a wind howling like a thousand demented banshees, that vestigial rigging transmogrified into rigging suited to performing that task, i.e. the main boom became a cargo boom, the main mast was moved forward, and the boom shortened so that when suspended from the end of the boom, the net could be discharged directly into the midships fish holds. To improve the functionality and durability of the hoisting arrangements, the wire staying of yore was replaced with tubing, i.e. the mast was transformed into a tri-pod mast with the "legs" led forward so as not to interfere with the handling of the fishing gear.

Thus the rigging on a Romsdal 55 really only serves a nostalgically, romantically cosmetic purpose, although as Delfin points out, even we Sunday sailors benefit from having appropriately adequate cargo handling gear, as you will see from the frequent posts asking about how to get the "ship's" tender on deck.

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Old 18-02-2019, 11:41   #27
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Quote: "Interesting masts set-up! Can you find out who decided on that mast configuration, and what they had in mind to use the masts for?"

Like for many "trawler yachts" a lot of the sales appeal of the Romsdals is rooted in nostalgia. As Delfin sez, the hull form is of some antiquity by now, and as I said in a prior post, the hull form is that of fishing vessels ranging from Scowegia to the Faeroes and Iceland. It endures because it evolved "organically" from the operational requirements for "keeping the sea" in those difficult waters. As engines supplanted sail as the motive force at the beginning of the 1900s, the traditional rigging appropriate to sailing craft became vestigial, and as fishing technology "improved", and weightier and weightier catches had to be taken aboard while the vessel rolled and pitched in seas generated by a wind howling like a thousand demented banshees, that vestigial rigging transmogrified into rigging suited to performing that task, i.e. the main boom became a cargo boom, the main mast was moved forward, and the boom shortened so that when suspended from the end of the boom, the net could be discharged directly into the midships fish holds. To improve the functionality and durability of the hoisting arrangements, the wire staying of yore was replaced with tubing, i.e. the mast was transformed into a tri-pod mast with the "legs" led forward so as not to interfere with the handling of the fishing gear.

Thus the rigging on a Romsdal 55 really only serves a nostalgically, romantically cosmetic purpose, although as Delfin points out, even we Sunday sailors benefit from having appropriately adequate cargo handling gear, as you will see from the frequent posts asking about how to get the "ship's" tender on deck.

TrentePieds
Most interesting, thank you.

Just FYI, but I built the boom for the main mast with an inner section that extends out 4' using a hydraulic boom inside the main boom, which allows for easy deployment and retrieval of the Whaler. This will also give me a slighter large mainsail to work with, which might easily be kind of a junk cut, as Gaia suggests.
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Old 18-02-2019, 12:55   #28
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

My sprit suggestion was based on the idea that you have a boom uphaul tackle already - that same tackle could be your uphaul for the upper inner corner of the sail. You would indeed need an uphaul for the sprit, to push it up (called a snotter, I believe), but that would be mounted somewhere around your gooseneck and wd be just a simple tackle. The sail can be boomless , which wd be simple but reduce dead down-wind effectiveness. What you now have as a boom could be a boom for the sail or -if it can articulate up and be extended quite a bit more - even cd operate as the sprit itself.
I really envy your extendable boom !
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Old 18-02-2019, 12:58   #29
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

I hate to say this because I truly love the look of classic motorsailers but this is a lesson in futility. Considering the large size of your boat & small amount of canvas you'll be able to raise there will be little or no measurable effect.
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Old 18-02-2019, 13:44   #30
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Re: Sail recommendation for a stinkpot

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Originally Posted by keithw88 View Post
My sprit suggestion was based on the idea that you have a boom uphaul tackle already - that same tackle could be your uphaul for the upper inner corner of the sail. You would indeed need an uphaul for the sprit, to push it up (called a snotter, I believe), but that would be mounted somewhere around your gooseneck and wd be just a simple tackle. The sail can be boomless , which wd be simple but reduce dead down-wind effectiveness. What you now have as a boom could be a boom for the sail or -if it can articulate up and be extended quite a bit more - even cd operate as the sprit itself.
I really envy your extendable boom !
I'm starting to see the merit in a sprit configuration. It could theoretically get pretty large, and perhaps with a carbon fiber sprit might not be too much of an effort to raise. But I wonder how much improvement there would be over a big asymmetrical drifter?
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