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Old 11-09-2016, 06:05   #16
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Before going thru all the valid contortions and expenses suggested above,get one of the better racers or a sailmaker to go sailing with you to make sure your sail trimming is not deficient . A few drinks at the bar should get someone knowledgeable aboard;way cheaper than buying another boat and only then finding out it is you.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:48   #17
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

You've gotten great advice!

I would definitely start with the polars -- otherwise you don't really know how far off normal performance you are.

But a 150% genoa?? This is not an upwind sail even in perfect condition and sail trim perfect. Nor can you really trim it off the wind, due to the low clew. So in my opinion, this kind of sail is not much good for anything, except maybe poling it out downwind if you don't have a spinnaker.

In my experience, overlapping headsails don't add anything upwind, even in very light wind. They produce more drag but don't add any lift upwind, compared to a higher aspect sail, so you get more heel and leeway without more drive.

On my boat, I have a non-overlapping 95% blade and a 120% overlapping yankee with a high cut clew. The high cut clew helps the yankee's sheeting angle when off the wind, but it is still a fairly rare case where the yankee gives more drive than the blade. Off the wind AND very light conditions only.

So if I were you, I might also be thinking about a different sail, and probably no more than 120% overlapping if that much.

Besides looking at polars, you should by all means talk to people racing this boat. They will know what headsails will be most effective. The world has moved on quite a ways since the era of 150% genoas, and there will no doubt be some consensus among people actually sailing them, what works best.

I had the same problem with my boat when I bought her. It took a lot of work over a some years to get her sailing well upwind. In my experience, very few cruising boats, are actually able to get upwind effectively. It's really hard, compared to other points of sail -- it's the real art of sailing.

Here is what I am now getting on my boat:

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2/3 or maybe slightly more of the true wind speed, and tacking over ground in about 100 degrees, in very good conditions and smooth sea state.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:28   #18
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Dockhead, where is the rationale for your comments on big jibs coming from? As basically it sounds like you're suggesting that someone convinced 99% of the sailing world that the performance of such sails is illusory.

BTW, the "formula" for going upwind hasn't changed, in many generations. And isn't at all a secret. Find a mid-level racer & he'll tell you how to optomize a boat for it in one cocktail or less
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:29   #19
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

A 135 is generally the worst pointing sail on a boat btw. This is generally called the #2, and sheets outboard, but not far enough back for the leech to bend back towards centerline. Basically if yo u draw a line from the forstay to the clew, the angle between this line and the centerline is called the theta angle. The lower the theta the more upwind the sail can go.

So once the sail has to be trimmed outside the larger it is the better it will point. Of course really large headsails are a pain in the but to tack, and can quickly just put the boat over on its ear so there is a balance.

But this is why many race boats go 155 (L1), 153 (h1), 135(#2 stored at home), 115 (#3 inside).
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:06   #20
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Dockhead, where is the rationale for your comments on big jibs coming from? As basically it sounds like you're suggesting that someone convinced 99% of the sailing world that the performance of such sails is illusory.

BTW, the "formula" for going upwind hasn't changed, in many generations. And isn't at all a secret. Find a mid-level racer & he'll tell you how to optomize a boat for it in one cocktail or less
Well, my comments are based on a certain amount of experience, and observation that no one seems to use 150% genoas anymore. But if I'm wrong, I'll be glad to be corrected.

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Old 11-09-2016, 17:02   #21
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

You got a point: selling and buying a faster boat rigged for racing, and with the sails would get me the whole package, and competitive, without a whole lot of work and $. In all likelihood, I could make a bunch of modifications, only to realize I was limited mainly by hull design, weight, etc. Which would be disappointing.

I'm hesitant to sell partly because it's such a buyer's market, and some boats seem to stay there forever. At least with the S2 I can say, if you going to buy an old boat, by this one as they're truly well made, solid, and mine's in good shape. So I think I will try to sell her.

I'll make modifications--which will help sell her too--without going overboard in the meantime.

UNCIVILIZED, I don't have a case 'o rum for you--but I do have an excellent
Martinican Rhum (with an h) and a Cuban cigar to try if you're ever in the area
(Narragansett Bay)!
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Old 11-09-2016, 17:49   #22
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, my comments are based on a certain amount of experience, and observation that no one seems to use 150% genoas anymore. But if I'm wrong, I'll be glad to be corrected.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Trends on rig design have changed a bit in this century. With boats & rigs having gotten a lot lighter, which has made it fairly easy to achieve good SADR's without needing overlapping jibs. But those developments are relatively new. With older boats having been designed around having overlapping jibs, & in light airs they're glued to the water without them.

A boat gets a big power boost from a 155% deck sweeping jib. And the whole end plate seal thing doesn't just apply to such sails. It's provein in a range of applications. Such as on aircraft, out at the tips of wings. Ditto with regard to the design of keel appendages. Especially modern ones.

Admittedly such sails aren't ideal for off wind work, but that's why there are spinnakers. They're common for racing, which is what the OP wants to excel at.
BTW many racing boats carrying 2-3 different weights of #1 jibs at a time, & have more of them on shore.

You've sailed on boats with adjustable jib cars right? So as to be able to better trim sails at different wind angles. Including going to outboard leads or even barberhaulers. Such trimming devices & techniques aid in boosting the efficency of any sail greatly. Yankee or 155%. And you can even use them to adjust a sheets lead via applying them vertically. Not just in the athwartships plane.

Big jibs provide extra horse power on all classes of boats that they're fitted to. It's simply a matter of having much more area to catch the wind, & generate lift with. Even the wildly successful Code 0's are a variant of a big jib. They're sails originally designed to circumvent a measuring rule which limited the number of big genoas a boat could have. And the overlapping thing works pretty well with them too. So I can't see not having light air sails onboard, especially for performance cruising or racing.
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Old 11-09-2016, 17:50   #23
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

It seems I recall, and maybe it was mentioned, sorry if it was, the S2's keel is molded in, no bolts, right? and does she have a skeg? can't recall, maybe not. Great for strength, for a cruiser, but won't perform or lift as well as thinner keel. Personally I think you have a great boat, leaning a little more to the cruising side than racing, yes, but still great. The concessions to make in design to make a more competitive boat begin to remove the cruising assets you have, it seems to me... but I feel your pain, it's more fun to win!
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Old 11-09-2016, 21:34   #24
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

JIvories, the rhum & good cigar would do me just fine
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Old 11-09-2016, 22:46   #25
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Trends on rig design have changed a bit in this century. With boats & rigs having gotten a lot lighter, which has made it fairly easy to achieve good SADR's without needing overlapping jibs. But those developments are relatively new. With older boats having been designed around having overlapping jibs, & in light airs they're glued to the water without them.

A boat gets a big power boost from a 155% deck sweeping jib. And the whole end plate seal thing doesn't just apply to such sails. It's provein in a range of applications. Such as on aircraft, out at the tips of wings. Ditto with regard to the design of keel appendages. Especially modern ones.

Admittedly such sails aren't ideal for off wind work, but that's why there are spinnakers. They're common for racing, which is what the OP wants to excel at.
BTW many racing boats carrying 2-3 different weights of #1 jibs at a time, & have more of them on shore.

You've sailed on boats with adjustable jib cars right? So as to be able to better trim sails at different wind angles. Including going to outboard leads or even barberhaulers. Such trimming devices & techniques aid in boosting the efficency of any sail greatly. Yankee or 155%. And you can even use them to adjust a sheets lead via applying them vertically. Not just in the athwartships plane.

Big jibs provide extra horse power on all classes of boats that they're fitted to. It's simply a matter of having much more area to catch the wind, & generate lift with. Even the wildly successful Code 0's are a variant of a big jib. They're sails originally designed to circumvent a measuring rule which limited the number of big genoas a boat could have. And the overlapping thing works pretty well with them too. So I can't see not having light air sails onboard, especially for performance cruising or racing.
OK, thanks, that's interesting. I have never noticed any power boost from overlapping jibs so long as the wind is ahead of the beam, and I thought the world had moved away from the really big low aspect ones, but I haven't raced in almost 40 years so my experience will be quite poor compared to yours. Racing, of course, is the acid test of all this theory, because even small differences will be obvious when you're pitted against other boats.
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Old 12-09-2016, 00:54   #26
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Quote:
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I have never noticed any power boost from overlapping jibs so long as the wind is ahead of the beam, and I thought the world had moved away from the really big low aspect ones, but I haven't raced in almost 40 years so my experience will be quite poor compared to yours. Racing, of course, is the acid test of all this theory, because even small differences will be obvious when you're pitted against other boats.
Big jibs aren't so common as they used to be, since a much larger percentage of the boats designed in the last 2 decades have significantly taller masts, proportionally, than older designs. From which to hang their sails. So that it's easier for them to have a lot of sail area without having much, if any, jib overlap. Sail areas equal to or greater than what older boats have, even with overlapping jibs. Which is probably why you're seeing what you are.

Tall carbon fiber spars on boats which weigh half as much as boats the same size of 25 years ago, make it easy to power them up. Especially when you add in modern mainsails with loads of roach, & square tops on some of them. So, bigger by far, & much, much more efficient, aerodynamically speaking.

Some of the sail plan changes too, reflect designers adapting to how the rating rules about how sail area is measured have changed. Certain features which didn't used to be measured ("taxed") under the rules now are, & vice versa as well.

Still, sail area is like cubic inches of displacement in an engine, "...there is no substitute".
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:37   #27
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Big jibs aren't so common as they used to be, since a much larger percentage of the boats designed in the last 2 decades have significantly taller masts, proportionally, than older designs. From which to hang their sails. So that it's easier for them to have a lot of sail area without having much, if any, jib overlap. Sail areas equal to or greater than what older boats have, even with overlapping jibs. Which is probably why you're seeing what you are.

Tall carbon fiber spars on boats which weigh half as much as boats the same size of 25 years ago, make it easy to power them up. Especially when you add in modern mainsails with loads of roach, & square tops on some of them. So, bigger by far, & much, much more efficient, aerodynamically speaking.

Some of the sail plan changes too, reflect designers adapting to how the rating rules about how sail area is measured have changed. Certain features which didn't used to be measured ("taxed") under the rules now are, & vice versa as well.

Still, sail area is like cubic inches of displacement in an engine, "...there is no substitute".
OK, that all makes sense, but doesn't aspect ratio figure in there somewhere, besides sail area?

I can see how simple sail area ("cubic inches") is king when the sails are making drag (i.e. going upwind), but I would have thought that lowering the aspect ratio of the headsail by making it longer and more overlapping, would increase drag without increasing lift, or at least without increasing it proportionally. Is this not the case?

That would also account for the popularity of the taller, lighter rigs you you mentioned, wouldn't it? If you go back 100 years to the old J class boats, you saw huge long booms and long low aspect mainsails -- quite different from today's skinny flat-tops, aren't they? You gotta think there's some progress involved.
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:58   #28
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

To the OP, I hope that some of this information/discussion will be assistive in your quest for silver. Assuming, that is, that it doesn't drain your wallet of it first ...when you're adding sails to your inventory.

On aspect ratios in sails. Yes, for upwind work especially, higher aspect ratios are superior. There are also some great new advances in shaping, as well as design being done. With both of these traits visible in both soft & hard sails.

Also battened jib development has made for sails that have much better shape, resulting in better performance per sqft/sqm. Such sails have been around in racing for decades, though in a more demure form. And they're much better known now. Including roachy jibs, thanks to battens. As well as furling sails with battens too; both vertical & flexible/furlable ones.

All of which help both cruisers & racers; for the same reasons that such tools are performance enhancers in mainsails. Not to mention adding to a sail's lifespan if done correctly.


PS: One can usually find interesting reading on these kinds of things at www.AYRS.org the Amateur Yacht Research Sociiety. Where they've been testing out all kinds of sailing stuff for ages, which is outside of the box, & or, outside of the rating rules. And doing it going back many decades, kind of like Nat Hereshof & some others, who've done all of this before. Way back when.
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Old 14-09-2016, 19:11   #29
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

When we bought our boat, she wouldn't point or tack well. Couldn't trim worth a damn, too much weather helm, etc etc etc.

Then we replaced the sails. Oh wow, maybe I can learn to sail!

Perhaps more to the point, we can beat much closer to the wind with our 98% yankee than our 135 Genny, and a bit closer if we sheet inside, but seldom need to.

Indeed even then it is a rare day we tack only through 90, but occasionally by falling off to 110 or so we can creep back up, so the "net" gets close to 90.
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Old 17-09-2016, 18:57   #30
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Re: S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ??

Thanks to all, for the informative posts and useful debates
(especially about genoa size vs efficiency).

I should confirm, Don C L, that yes, a molded keel with keg rudder. This is a thick heavy keel, far from thin like a racing keel. And glad you understand, it's a very pleasant, well-made cruiser. I don't want to sell it if I can avoid it!

And according to a good sail maker in RI, a good racng headsail, a good traveller, a smooth hull, and maybe a folding rudder would speed her up enough to be competitive. For some $$, clearly.

But I've been out sailing since seeing these posts, and think my biggest obstacle to pointing well may be that the shrouds meet chain plates very close to lifelones, the edge. How is one supposed to get an airplane wing shape, when the sail pretty much has to be outside lifelines, following shape of hull--which is quite beamy for a 30'. (10' beam)? I ould barbarhaull lead, but am afraid to twist in leech too much, being limited by spreaders and shrouds.

True no? The wide spreaders and shrouds really go against good genoa shape,
and therefore pointing ability.
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