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Old 18-12-2014, 15:16   #1
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Routing Running Rigging?

Anyone have any experience rigging with ferrules and or tie-on sheaves?

Specifically I am looking to run halyards, reefing, and control lines, which are all presently mast-mounted, back to the cockpit on a forty footer and so considering them for turning blocks and fairleads.

I like their stupid simplicity, but I don't know about them other than seeing them more and more on tricked out racers. Looks to me like Hardcote Anodizing on most of them, which is pretty low friction, but still I have to wonder how they compare to a block. Anyone using them?

Thanks
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Old 18-12-2014, 16:43   #2
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Can't help you with your question... actually have the same curiosity myself! But I'm entranced by the last photo (the one of the mast base on the red deck). What a conglomeration of strings and turning devices. Everything from s/s eye bolts through ferrules to what appear to be nice blocks with rope running over sheaves designed for wire.

And i thought that my mast base was too crowded...

Jim
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Old 18-12-2014, 17:06   #3
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Can't help you with your question... actually have the same curiosity myself! But I'm entranced by the last photo (the one of the mast base on the red deck). What a conglomeration of strings and turning devices. Everything from s/s eye bolts through ferrules to what appear to be nice blocks with rope running over sheaves designed for wire.

And i thought that my mast base was too crowded...

Jim
Copy that. And all those bolt holes probably leave the deck and mast with the tensile strength of a piece of toilet paper, but it sure looks purdy!

Jacques
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Old 18-12-2014, 18:36   #4
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Those all look to be full on (Pro) race boat installations. The kind where every tiny bit of weight, down to the gram counts. Thus the rings instead of blocks. The friction level using them isn't as low as a good block, though of course they're lighter & cheaper. But unless you keep the lines running though them drum tight, you'll hear'em banging on the deck, when you're off watch, trying to sleep (which also wears on their slick anodizing & the lines running through them). Where as DIY standup blocks are a no brainer.

Also, if it's not obvious, race boats have easily 2-4x the number of lines of cruising boats. Some of which are being almost continually tweaked. And weight, as in a guy to tweak them, anywhere forward of the pit is a big no no, as it slows the boat a tiny fraction. Thus things get led; aft, & as much as possible/is practical, to both windward rails. So that the crews can tune things while being hiked out.

It's VERY important to seriously think about what lines you want to lead aft on a cruising boat. Because a lot of the time, such determines if sail changes & adjustments can be made single-handed, or require 2 crew.

- For instance, if all of your halyards forward of the mast have their tails led aft, then you've essentially just dictated that headsail changes are a 2-man (minimum) operation.
While if you have a winch on the mast for one of your often used jib halyards, & it's tail is long enough to reach the bow. Then it's a lot easier to do headsail swaps single handed, especially if said headsail is going up/coming down the groove in a foil. Not that changing a jib with hanks, which has a halyard led to the cockpit is all that much simpler when solo, all told.

Or with reefing lines, for example. How do you plan to lead the clew lines aft, but without them impairing the boom from swinging freely, all without chafing the lines at; the forward end of the boom, ditto regarding the blocks at the base of the mast?
On top of which you then have to ask the same kinds of questions for the tack's reefing lines, in addition to how to have them pull both down & forward. Then down to the deck, & aft. Again, sans chafe.

So, just for the main, assuming you have 3 reefs, that means that you're leading the following aft:
- 3 clew reefing lines
- 3 tack reefing lines
- Cunningham
- Outhaul
- Main Halyard
- Vang (possibly)
- Sheet (possibly, & it could even have both ends led aft depending on the setup)
- Topping Lift (possibly)

Ergo 12'ish lines (not including a couple of optional ones which I left out). Plus, there's the additional possibility of a Trysail, perhaps with a halyard of it's own. And then there's the myriad of lines which one can have for things forward of the mast.

Also, keep in mind that it's best to have a way to keep track of which line does what, even in the dark. As at times you may not be able to reach for, have time for, or be able to use, a flashlight. Though color coding, & different textures/tactilites for various lines does help.

Plus (as pictured) it's a bit of a real estate fight at the base of the spar (even without a Trysail bagged, & attached to it's track, on deck). And then there's the cost of the jammers (clutches), & the fight to get good, fair leads to both them & to the cabin top winches.
And, it's a good idea to keep any line that's highly loaded, secured via a self tailing winch, backed up by a horn cleat. Not just secured in a clutch, as the lines last a fair bit longer thusly.

Oh, & one other key item. Aside from the need for structural reinforcements around the base of the mast (on deck, & in it's cores), plus a big backing plate belowdecks (possibly bonded [glued] to the deck).
There's also the factor of the loads on winches near the companionway. On some boats, these loads can be sufficient to make it impossible to open or close the hatch fully (or at all). And or puts stresses into the cabin top deck which it just wasn't designed for.
Such is a rarity, but a consideration. Especially if say, you start adding sails which have multi-part purchases/extra high loads on their halyards. Though it, of course, depends on the boat, & where these new "toys" are mounted.

It's best to sketch out all of these things on paper first. As in what you'd like to lead aft, & where. Plus thinking through the utility & user friendliness of your proposed new setup.
Then get the dimensions of a couple of different makes of hardware which you'd consider using for each task. Following which, armed with; a measuring tape, some masking tape, dimensional cardboard cutouts of your proposed hardware, & a non-permanent marker, go down to the boat & try mocking things up.

Oh, & I almost forgot, when considering such mods, you also need to factor in where the tails of all of these lines are going to be neatly stowed. Yet easily retrievable, such as if you need to drop a, or all sail in a hurry.

My apologies if I've given anyone a headache, I'm just trying to (semi) thoroughly explain what goes into these kinds of systems. As there's a bit more to them than meets the eye.
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Old 18-12-2014, 18:51   #5
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

There are actually a couple of different things going on in those pictures.

The first one is using karver ball bearing blocks not rings. They are awsome, and not terribly expensive. I highly recommend them over traditional blocks because they fail safe. It the mounting hardware (line) is massively stronger than the block itself. So even if the block explodes the halyard is contained.

The second pic looks like the control mess for a foiling moth. Like a fin they have way to many control lines, but none are highly loaded.

3rd pic looks like a colligio marine line guide. I am pretty sure they are Delrin with dyneema line this is a pretty low friction set up. More for furling lines than halyard organizers.

4th looks very much like a tp-52 barber haul system. That allows in-out adjustments to the job lead.

5th no idea...

6th some small tweaky dinghy like a fin.


Notice that all of the rings are using in either static load situations, or on small boats. I really like the rings, but you have to be realistic about where to use them. Halyard turning blocks wouldn't work, but for a mostly static backstay, or vang they can work very well.

Below is an example of the karver blocks in a cascade... Very sweet.
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:02   #6
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Interesting that we are come to this. Look at the shroud rigging for any wind-driven warship: deadeyes made of high-density material (ironwood)- as close to delrin as they could get in the 1800's. The KISS principle always seems to prevail in sailing. Uncivilized has good points; you have to go with what works for you and think it all out. A week of thinking is worth a month of swearing later.
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:15   #7
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Great comments above. I agree with Uncivilized - I prefer halyards and reefing lines to be at the mast rather than needing to be in two places at once.
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:32   #8
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

If you make any significant change in direction using the ferrules, you will have significant friction and increased tension required on the halyard, etc. Fine for tweaking the lead on a spinaker or other sheet but not for what you are propposing. If the mast is deck stepped, buy a mast base plate from Garhauer that will allow you to attach blocks for turning the lines from vertical to horizontal. You can use standup blocks bolted to the deck but cost is significant'y higher. If mast is keel stepped, you can use padeyes for blocks screwed to the mast for the blocks, a collar screwed to the mast or standup blocks bolted to the deck but will have to have a tie rod from the mast to deck to keep the deck from lifting.

Then you will usually need a stacked deck orgainizer to get a fair lead for the line between the mast and the clutch(es) and winch(es) aft on the cabin top.

Did the triple reefed main two line reefing, halyard and outhaul lines to the cockpit using Harken standup blocks for the clew reefing lines and outhaul, Ronstan blocks on a single large padeye for the tack reefing lines, and a Harken fixed halyard turning block for the main halyard at the mast. Installed two Garhauer four sheave turning blocks on the deck to get the halyards, etc aligned with the clutches on the cabin top. Have one winch port and stbd on the cabin top for halyard and clew reefing lines.

The system has worked great. Can haul the main up by hand till about 5' from the mast head then have to crank the last bit with a winch. Can reef in less than a minute from the secure confines of the cockpit protected by the dodger. Made sailing in SF Bay way more enjoyable as a typical daysail often involved reefing more than once in 30 plus mph winds. Now tie in a reef at the first sign of it being needed as it is so easy to reef and shake it out when the need passes. On the sail to Hawaii reefed a couple of times just for the fun of it. The tails of all the lines are stuffed in bags screwed to the back of the cabin. Everything is neat and out of the way.

Don't think it's a good idea to run jib and spinnaker halyards aft. Just too many things that require a body on the foredeck when messing with hoisting and striking those sails.
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Old 19-12-2014, 00:05   #9
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

roverhi,
Sounds like a fairly nice setup. And yes, we're in concurrence on foresail halyards more or less. However, for kites, on anything resembling a bigger boat, you need a dedicated halyard puller in order to get the sail's head up to the hounds before it can fill (and this is true on big boats, with or without wool banding).

- Different idea, which I haven't tried, but likely is viable. If one's okay with running hi-modulus reefing lines, like say Warpspeed. Then you could probably put a Wide Schaeffer (pin stop) Jib Car @ the mast base, & run 2 or 3 of your clew or tack reefing lines through the same car.
I mean they're designed to handle a couple of big jib sheets, one's far bigger in diameter than 3/8" or 7/16" Warpspeed. And if you wanted to, you could strip back the cover on the reefing lines until only the bare (load bearing) core inside, passed through the block.
Though you'd have to properly; taper, bury, & lock stitch the cover into the core aft of there. Not a big chore.

I think that the biggest catch would be whether or not the car would articulate enough to allow for boom movement, without line chafe. If anyone gives this a try, would you please be kind enough to give me a shout & let me know how it worked, plus the learning curve, details etc.

Ah, one item which I forgot to mention earlier. I STRONGLY suggest using Maxi-Jacket (the old, or the new & improved version) on any of these control lines where it has any chance of touching metal, or any other fittings. It's an upgraded coating from what already comes on Spectra & other Hi-Mod lines, only you choose where to "paint" it on. Samson Ropes is the maker. The catch, is trying to find it in small quantities of late.
But it helps to protect against chafe, in addition to more firmly securing the cover to the core. And I think that one other company makes something similar.

Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest using one of the above rings in this thread, or better, a block at each reef point to reduce friction (preferably Antal's Choice one - see pg.88 http://euromarinetrading.com/antal/p...-Antal-ENG.pdf) . However, in the interests of chafe protection (and safety), make sure that the block has a leather, & or Spectra cover (sock). Ditto on extra chafe protection on the sail in said locale.
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Old 19-12-2014, 07:55   #10
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

1. Old Open 60
2. Moth control lines
3. Hardcote Anodized organizer (Kohlhoff, who recommends them for halyards)
4. Il Mostro
5. Il Mostro
6. VOR boat

Here's a couple more interesting examples. Correct about the Karvers, whioch were what I had called "tie-on sheaves" which I have also heard referred to by other names.
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Old 19-12-2014, 08:43   #11
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

It looks like in the pics that there are a number of examples of using a single ferrule with multiple lines going through it. Does these work out well in practice?
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:12   #12
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Interesting thoughts from all. I can’t say I have seen a single Class Mini, Class 40, or Open 60 that has halyard winches at the mast which really makes me question the notion that somehow this location is the best for singlehanding. Personally I never found changing headsails singlehanded easy regardless of where halyard winches were located except in light wind, in which case it doesn’t matter.

If the halyard winches are aft, I find with arms outstretched I can hold tension on the top of the sail after feeding the luff with one hand while I step back to take up the slack where it exits the mast with the other. Then I tie the slack with a slip knot to hold it where it exits the mast, while I move aft to the winches. The knot comes free when I take it up on the winch. Once it’s up I have immediate control over the jib/spinnaker sheets because I am already there, reducing the amount of time they spend flogging wildly about. That’s what usually works for me.

I can definitely recall situations changing a headsail in heavy winds with mast mounted halyard winches that required one guy on the bow, a guy on the mast at the halyard, and a third in the stern driving. You know, the bow is pitching and the halyard swinging wildly about from the masthead catching on the spreader and you get the luff fed and the head goes up two feet and gets stuck, then the sail has to come down and you do it all over again.

At least in this situation with cockpit mounted winches the helmsman (I have a tiller which helps) can tail for the guy on the bow, thereby eliminating the third position. Add to that the fact that I adjust jib halyard tension quite regularly when compared to how frequently I change headsails, I think it’s the way to go for me.

One additional factor that I think is worth mentioning, safety when sending someone up the mast. Personally, I think it is a lot safer to send someone up the mast from a well-organized halyard pit with self-tailers and rope clutches than it is while standing at the mast with non-self-tailers and horn cleats.

Speaking for ourselves, my wife isn't physically strong enough to send me up the mast with our mast mounted winches, let alone manage the lines safely. I recently scored a pair of winches that are duplicates of my primaries. Way too big to go on my mast but should be sufficient for her to send me up if the need should arise.

On our crossing this summer we had to send someone up a couple times. The boat was an old IOR boat with a bit of a winch farm on deck at the mast. It was a nightmare I would rather not relive.
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:15   #13
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

My gut says way to much stress and resistance. You want the biggest diameter turning blocks you can afford at the base of the mast. The loads are super high in that 90 degree turn.
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:22   #14
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
It looks like in the pics that there are a number of examples of using a single ferrule with multiple lines going through it. Does these work out well in practice?
Except on the Moth, I think when there are two lines it is when either one of them is always slack.
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:58   #15
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Re: Routing Running Rigging?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My gut says way to much stress and resistance. You want the biggest diameter turning blocks you can afford at the base of the mast. The loads are super high in that 90 degree turn.
Just to clarify, we're talking about two different things. The ferrules and the tie-on sheaves that feature bearings but are hollow and look similar to the ferrules. Each of the two types are sized by line diameter and have appropriate radius. As far as the 90 bend, I would point out the ferrules are intended to be used up to 180 as is shown in the Solent jib headstay tensioning rig in the last example.

I understand from one of the manufacturer's website they are not intended for use with halyards which I take to mean they can develop sufficient heat from friction on a running halyard to damage the lines. The aluminum and the anodizing should be fine, I had a vendor once who did anodizing and PTFE coatings for cookware. He did a lot of Hardcote on pans for a pizza factory.
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