Ropework tools

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

........

Can you (or anyone else) comment on the general performance (including ease of sharpening) of laminated SG2 vs ZDP189? I have read through threads on a few knife forums with very mixed responses.

Thanks in advance .

SWL

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

........

Part of my saying this comes from knowing more than a little about knives. And perhaps a bit less about people And the fact that the knife in question of the moment, The Helle isn't optimally designed for kitchen work, even were one to give it a better handle. Since when designing a good field, & skinning knife, if you know what you're doing, you choose an alloy that'll best meet the demands of the job, & the care that it will & won't recieve. And these characteristics also have to be taken into account when choosing the series of heat treatment steps needed in order to best assure the knife's optimal performance of it's chores, this while making it tough enough to survive a good many years doing these chores. And... the knife can't have such a hard edge as to be rediculously tough to sharpen in the back woods with a sharpening stone the size of a cigarette lighter. Nor can the steel be so brittle as to chip while chopping, or when the hunter hits a bone when skinning out a deer. But the edge holding must (in theory) be superb, since just cutting open a deer enough in order to properly dress it will fully dull over half of the knives you'll find in any sporting goods store. Fur + skin+ knife = dull.

I hope I'm making sense here. Trying to explain a bit of the design spiral & decisions that go into spec'ing a knife, much as is the case when one sits down with a blank sheet of paper to design a boat. Again, a design spiral. Or rather several, all of them intertwined. At least if the tools are of quality.......

UC is on the money here and also partly explains why knife forums will give "mixed results". Like sailors, they have wide range of experience (or lack of) and a wide range of usage from their blades. And dare I say it, a wide range of idiots which I reckon would take a while to sort out who's who. Plus knife makers vary considerably - some just want to make the "perfect" edge or the "perfect" shape or the "perfect" whatever; others really want to make useful tools of trade.

[markwesti]

A rigging knife , just like a boat should look good IMO. Check out this guys stuff .
BOATING — Densmore Knives

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

.....
Can you (or anyone else) comment on the general performance (including ease of sharpening) of laminated SG2 vs ZDP189? I have read through threads on a few knife forums with very mixed responses.

Thanks in advance .

SWL

Rule of thumb: easy sharpening = poor edge holding; hard to sharpen = good edge holding.

Certainly not a universal truth but a good starting point!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Ya a tough Lassie to please

Whatever gave you that idea?

Originally Posted by Wotname

This is a knife (and a smallish one), it should be in your hand or stowed on your body (or nearby) in an oiled leather sheath, not left unattended for weeks on end dangling from the bowsprit washed by wind and wave

To my uneducated mind, 304 is prolly the appropriate SS for the job.

And yep, I have come across the same problem regarding the middle layers. Older web information suggests the middle layer is carbon tool steel but later information does not confirm that. Maybe it is company secret thing. I do know that the centre layer on my #99 Harding blank is visible along the edge. While it can be seen by the naked eye, a 20x loupe makes it really clear. It will develop a surface rust if left unattended (and un-oiled) for few months just in a drawer at home. The polished 304 outer layers retains their mirror finish. This suggests that the centre is carbon steel and I have no reason to expect it is a poor quality.

This surface rust will rub off with a finger and the edge comes up well with a fine diamond hone. When I am in the mood, I follow this up with Lansky ultra fine #1000 stone, then a sapphire stone and finish off with a leather strop with a little jewellers rouge. But mostly I'm not in the mood and finish with the diamond fine.

The take away is that centre layer acts like, cuts like and holds the edge like a good carbon steel so I'm guessing it is.

Is it the best, probably not but it is pretty darn good and way better than some of the other "good" steels and I would suggest but couldn't prove that it better than almost all of the various SS blades.

Once again though I have never left this laminated blade out in the open on deck for any length of time - maybe it would fall apart in short order.

Why don't you get one and strap it to the tiller or wheel and report back in a year

Wash your mouth out . It would be a crime to leave that knife exposed to salt.
There are some superb knives made in Scandanavia. Flipping through some of the images is equivalent to boat porn .

Originally Posted by Wotname

UC is on the money here and also partly explains why knife forums will give "mixed results". Like sailors, they have wide range of experience (or lack of) and a wide range of usage from their blades. And dare I say it, a wide range of idiots which I reckon would take a while to sort out who's who. Plus knife makers vary considerably - some just want to make the "perfect" edge or the "perfect" shape or the "perfect" whatever; others really want to make useful tools of trade.

As here, there is a wealth of information to tap into though, but it would certainly take time to sort out who's who. I suddenly have a lot of sympathy for new members posting here trying to sort out the usefulness of replies .

Originally Posted by Wotname

Rule of thumb: easy sharpening = poor edge holding; hard to sharpen = good edge holding.

Certainly not a universal truth but a good starting point!

Add: good edge holding = poor chip resistance
And with the exception of ceramic knives: good edge holding = poor rust resistance

I HATE compromises .
The laminated steels seem like an excellent way of solving some of these problems though. The centre need not even be carbon steel to be razor sharp and hold an edge well. Some of the new powder steels apparently perform exceptionally well.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by markwesti

A rigging knife , just like a boat should look good IMO. Check out this guys stuff .
BOATING — Densmore Knives

Oh, they are jaw droppingly beautiful! Sheer artwork.

There are some skilled craftsmen in the USA producing one off pieces.

I have found photos of Mudd Sharrigan's rigger's knives and write ups on forums, but he has no website. He would be in his late 80's now. Photos can be found on Google images. I lust after one of his knives

SWL

[markwesti]

SWL in post #15 you mention a generic version of the Brian Toss wand would you please provide a link or a name , thanks . Here is my Ka-Bar folder it has a wicked strong snap and no lock for the blade , so it stays in a drawer .

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by markwesti

SWL in post #15 you mention a generic version of the Brian Toss wand would you please provide a link or a name , thanks .

Sorry, I did not mean to say I had found copies of the wand, simply substitutes that seen to function in a similar manner. These are splicing "needles". You poke the eye of the needle towards the portion to be pulled through and thread the strands through the eye. A wand is poked through the same way, but the strands are snagged. You then pull on the handle of either the wand or "needle" and bring the strands with it.

This is opposite to what you do with what I would call conventional fids used in splicing (the strands are pushed through with a thicker device).

I have not used the wand, but as a novice splicing double braid, the needles made the task dead easy for me. They are a fraction of the price of the wands. Maybe someone here who has used both wands and needles can comment on the difference in ease of use.

These are a few links for the needles:

EMF-Marine Online Shop

https://www.marlowropes.com/product/...licing-needles

Medium Splicing Needle - Best Prices for Rope in the UK. Sailing, Yachting Climbing and decking Rope by the meter - (Powered by CubeCart)

SWL

[Stumble]

I haven't used 'soplicing needles' but I have a set of knitting needles of some sort that are pretty similar. They work ok, but are a little fiddling to use. The taper has to be just right so when it fold back it doesn't get to thick, or you need to tape the ends down... the thing about Toss' wands is that the snare physically locks the line in place so you don't have to be all that meticulous about the taper or the attachment.

Absolutly the needles will work, I have done more than a few splices with them, but they don't work as well. Toss' wands are like a razor sharp knife (of whatever blade material), while the needles are like one of the cheap west marine stainless knives.... they will both cut line happily enough, and both can last a long time with proper handeling, but they really aren't the same thing.

Btw craft stores like Michaels are a great way to stock a splicing kit. Lots of cheap needles in various sizes (steel not stainless so they will rust), including my favorite lock stitching needles (sold as darning needles) for a fraction what stainless ones cost. Knitting needles make good tubular fids, etc.. just go peruse the selection sometime, it's amazing whatyou can find there.

[markwesti]

Thanks for the links SWL , here is a little project I started awhile back and then lost interest in and now thanks to you Cruiser Forumers , I think it's time I finished it . The blade is a Damascus cheapie from the Bay , the pins are from the Bay also they are parts for making a straight razor , the scales are teak . One thing I found out the hard way is if you keep a Damascus blade in a sheath with no liner it will rust .

[UNCIVILIZED]

SWL, even 3-layer laminated steel knives aren't a panacea. Firstly, the outer layers still have to have some ability to take & hold an edge, since they in fact form part of the knives cutting edge. So they can't be super soft from that perspective. Also they can't be super soft from the perspective that if they were (are) then everytime the blade strikes a hard surface with any force (as in when chopping), then the core of the knife would be absorbing all of that striking energy. In that it would be so much stiffer than the 2 outer layers of the blade. So "soft" outer layers is a relative term.

Also, few to no 3-layer knives can just be left to sit in a damp environment, & expected not to rust if they're not cared for. I had a Cold Steel knife made with their Sai Mai steel, a 3-layer stainless laminate, & it was no better at resisting corrosion than some of my carbon steel blades. And it wouldn't take, nor hold an edge worth crap. I HATED it, 2nd worst knife I've ever owned.

And again, the heat treatment that goes into any knife is HUGE. I've had Cold Steel Voyager pocket knives made of AUS 8A that held edges superbly. But fixed blade Cold Steel knives made from AUS 8A that I could dull by smacking the cutting edge into a piece of plywood ONCE. Dull as in you could visibly see where the cutting edge was bent over 40 deg. to one side. And I'm not at all a neophyte when it comes to properly sharpening a knife. So this wasn't a case of me goofing when I sharpened the knife in question.

On sharpening, since you asked. How tough it is to sharpen a particular knife is one of those "it depends" questions. It depends on; the knife's size, how dull it is, the bevel angle of the cutting edge, the blade material (alloy), the blade's hardness & heat treatment, the tool(s) being used to sharpen it, how polished an edge you desire, your sharpening skill level, & a few other things.
Frustrating perhaps, but a truthful answer.

Plenty of resturants, if the chefs don't sharpen their own knives, will have a professional knife sharpener stop by every couple of days to put a new edge on everything. And usually he's there for a while, this even though he has some great sharpening equipment.

Perhaps it'd be worth purchasing a few hours of consulting time with from a culinary school to aid you in selecting a set of knives that you'll be happy with. And knowing that they'll routinely need some TLC. Meaning both cleaning, & sharpening, as well as oiling.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

SWL, even 3-layer laminated steel knives aren't a panacea. Firstly, the outer layers still have to have some ability to take & hold an edge, since they in fact form part of the knives cutting edge. So they can't be super soft from that perspective. Also they can't be super soft from the perspective that if they were (are) then everytime the blade strikes a hard surface with any force (as in when chopping), then the core of the knife would be absorbing all of that striking energy. In that it would be so much stiffer than the 2 outer layers of the blade. So "soft" outer layers is a relative term.

Also, few to no 3-layer knives can just be left to sit in a damp environment, & expected not to rust if they're not cared for. I had a Cold Steel knife made with their Sai Mai steel, a 3-layer stainless laminate, & it was no better at resisting corrosion than some of my carbon steel blades. And it wouldn't take, nor hold an edge worth crap. I HATED it, 2nd worst knife I've ever owned.

And again, the heat treatment that goes into any knife is HUGE. I've had Cold Steel Voyager pocket knives made of AUS 8A that held edges superbly. But fixed blade Cold Steel knives made from AUS 8A that I could dull by smacking the cutting edge into a piece of plywood ONCE. Dull as in you could visibly see where the cutting edge was bent over 40 deg. to one side. And I'm not at all a neophyte when it comes to properly sharpening a knife. So this wasn't a case of me goofing when I sharpened the knife in question.

On sharpening, since you asked. How tough it is to sharpen a particular knife is one of those "it depends" questions. It depends on; the knife's size, how dull it is, the bevel angle of the cutting edge, the blade material (alloy), the blade's hardness & heat treatment, the tool(s) being used to sharpen it, how polished an edge you desire, your sharpening skill level, & a few other things.
Frustrating perhaps, but a truthful answer.

Plenty of resturants, if the chefs don't sharpen their own knives, will have a professional knife sharpener stop by every couple of days to put a new edge on everything. And usually he's there for a while, this even though he has some great sharpening equipment.

Perhaps it'd be worth purchasing a few hours of consulting time with from a culinary school to aid you in selecting a set of knives that you'll be happy with. And knowing that they'll routinely need some TLC. Meaning both cleaning, & sharpening, as well as oiling.

Hi Uncivilized
Thanks for the time taken to reply and for your advice. It is appreciated.

I don't let grass grow under my feet. I bit the bullet last night and ordered a new galley knife. It arrived afternoon and I am still jumping up and down with excitement . After a day of intense research and carefully weighing up all the pros and cons, I ended up going with layered stainless steel. I think it will be miles sharper than I have used previously and although needs a bit of care to avoid rust, this particular one is hopefully not nearly as susceptible as carbon steel, something important to me in a permanently salty environment. I think it will be the right compromise for my needs.

Seeking advice in person is not an option here. I am temporarily in the Netherlands living in a small rural village with just a bicycle for transport. Also, I actually think the information I can tap into online from the "collective" is actually better than what I would get simply asking one professional.

I just need to stock up on bandaids now .

SWL

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

......
I don't let grass grow under my feet. I bit the bullet last night and ordered a new galley knife. It arrived afternoon and I am still jumping up and down with excitement . ......

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Rendered me speechless for a while .

Photos posted here earlier have inspired me to tackle making some simple leather sheaths. I made vinyl sheaths for my 3 galley knives about a decade ago and they have been very useful, but they are deteriorating. Replacing these with hand stitched soft leather would be an easy project to start with before tackling thicker hide that enables moulded shapes for other knives. Could be a fun project.

I have no woodworking skills, just admiration. What timber are you using for the handle of your new knife?

SWL

[UNCIVILIZED]

SWL if your new knife comes in a box rust brown fingerprints on it, & there's a packet of Quik-Clot/Celox in with the knife...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Rendered me speechless for a while .

.............

SWL

'tis a rare event I reckon

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

......What timber are you using for the handle of your new knife?

SWL

Probably off topic but hey, it's your thread and your question so here goes...

The principle one is procrastinatorwood .

I want to use Huon pine 'cause it's local and just wonderful to work with, to feel and to smell...BUT it is very pale and usually fine grain and without visual wow factor. So thinking to incorporate a contrasting timber like a red Myrtle. Again its local.... BUT its very hard and marrying the two together will make it difficult to finish sand / polish etc due to the vast difference in hardness. Your post has given me cause to think about it some more. Maybe I should try to get hold some Queensland red cedar. It does have a nice deep red colour and is very soft - maybe even softer than Huon pine. While it's not local, I am originally a banana bender so that might allow me to use it . Would be hard to source but might be able to hunt some down in an existing article.

Also thinking of a silver bolster and pommel but first I have to work out how to cast silver and polish it etc. Maybe even a silver inlay...

Maybe never get done if I don't get off CF...