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Old 30-08-2009, 18:07   #1
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Roll Swaging vs Copper Swage and Thimble

I have a 24 foot medium displacement cruising yacht, in need of new standing rigging.
Currently the boat has roll swaged 3/16" 1 x 19 standing rigging, and quotes to replace have been fairly expensive.
How does the strength of a roll swage compare to a copper swage and thimble?...
It'd be much easier for me to replace the shrouds one by one with copper swages and thimbles, and free to swage at my local chandlery so long as i buy the wire and thimbles etc there. I've checked and there's no problem with the swages and thimbles physically fitting to the exisiting rigging arrangement.
Any thoughts welcomed on this...
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Old 30-08-2009, 18:39   #2
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What are copper swages? Never seen. Ferrules?

If ferrules then no-go. They are not compatible with 1x19. But look up Pardey's book and they do have something with fittings like stalock, except they melt some metal and fill the fitting. And it works.

As other suppliers the swaged terminations should not be that expensive.

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Old 30-08-2009, 20:08   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dove View Post
I have a 24 foot medium displacement cruising yacht, in need of new standing rigging.
Currently the boat has roll swaged 3/16" 1 x 19 standing rigging, and quotes to replace have been fairly expensive.
How does the strength of a roll swage compare to a copper swage and thimble?...
It'd be much easier for me to replace the shrouds one by one with copper swages and thimbles, and free to swage at my local chandlery so long as i buy the wire and thimbles etc there. I've checked and there's no problem with the swages and thimbles physically fitting to the exisiting rigging arrangement.
Any thoughts welcomed on this...
I would go with 5mm Dynex Dux and small thimbles from Colligo. You can do the splices yourself, they are not hard to do at all really. Or have Colligo do them, eliminate weight up high, and not have any corrosion worries.

3/16 316 SS wire has a breaking strength of 4,400 lbs. cost $1.29 foot
http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2...gory_Code=WIRE


5mm Dynex Dux breaking strength is 10,400 lbs.
Cost is $1.79 a foot

http://www.colligomarine.com/Colligo.../Dynex-Dux.htm
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Old 30-08-2009, 20:15   #4
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Sorry, should have used the international language, not aussie!
Yes, ferrules is what i'm referring to, so 1 x 19 wouldn't work, is that because of the bending of the wire? I'm sure we have the same wire on our lifelines and they go around a thimble...
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Old 30-08-2009, 20:47   #5
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i think what you refer to down under as 'copper swage' we here in the good old u.s.a call 'nicopress fittings'. i've used them for years. you can buy a simple nicopress swaging tool for under $60 here. i wouldn't hesitate to use them for all the rigging on a 24' boat. they work up until about 1/4" rigging wire. on the larger wire sizes you may have to use 7x19 instead of 1x19 because the 1x19 doesn't bend around the thimble as easily.

my current boat uses larger wire so i can't swage the standing rigging anymore. but i have swaged on my own main halyard and topping lift.

for a picture of what i'm talking about go to www.defender.com and, in the search box, put in 'swage-it' (the name of the tool) and then try 'oval double sleeve' (the kind of swage fitting you will want to use).

by the way, i took down one old wire at a time, stretched it out on the ground, made up a new wire right alongside it, put the new wire up, and then went on to the next wire. did a whole boat in an afternoon.
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Old 30-08-2009, 21:14   #6
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That's what i was thinking, i might upsize from 3/16" wire to 1/4" wire to allow for any loss of strength from using the thimble and ferrule.
It's only a 24' boat, fin keel, but it'd be nice if i could find a S.W.L. or M.W.L. for both methods of rigging to compare.
Surely must be better than the original 30 year old rigging!!!
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Old 30-08-2009, 21:50   #7
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Will the eyes (thimbles) be compatible with your rigging screws (turnbuckles) or are you replacing these as well?

I would be cautious about up-sizeing to 1/4" due to weight aloft etc and 1/4" would be pretty large for a Triton 24 IMO, but then again I am not rigger!
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Old 30-08-2009, 22:06   #8
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7X7 wire rope is normally used on lifelines because it is abrasive resistant and somewhat flexible. 7X19 is used for halyards because it is the most flexible and 1X19 is used on standing rigging because it is stronger and has less stretch, but it is not flexible. If you use 1X19 wire you will have trouble bending it around any thimble, and nicropress fittings will be extremely hard to press and you would have to use many fittings to approximate about 2/3 the holding power of a swage fitting (look at the difference in grip length). Also copper will not grip like stainless.

If you use use 7X7 wire you can get either machine or hand swage fittings specifically made for lifelines use, or you may be able to use thimbles and nicropress; but again you will have to use about 3 press fittings or more and the wire will stretch a bit under load. If you use 7X19 wire as is recommended for halyards, you will have the best luck with nicropress fittings and thimbles but it will have more stretch.

If you use the 1X19 as recommended for rigging, you will have the best wire for rigging, but if you don't use mechanically swaged fittings you should use mechanical machined fittings like Noresman or Staylocks or others. These are really the best but are a little pricey, that's why most manufacturers use Swages.

You may be able to get away with nicropress fittings on your standing rigging but would you buy a boat with them? I think not! You devalue your boat and risk disaster. A broken mast will bang on your deck and thats not good, But if the rigging fails and the stick goes over the side (in bad weather) , you may have to cut it loose to prevent it from putting a hole in your hull.

Spend a little more and do the job right.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Joe S
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Old 30-08-2009, 22:22   #9
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I am going to replace the turnbuckles too, with fork type which will fit the thimbles if i go that way.
The sta-lok system is more expensive than getting the wire roll swaged, which i must admit i'm leaning towards after reading the previous reply!!
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Old 30-08-2009, 22:35   #10
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Sta-lok price...

I have a Sta-lok price list that quotes a 3/16" 136-05 stud terminal at about $A50.
Your boat might use 12 of these for a total of (about) $600 plus the cost of the wire.
If you give the Marinex Corporation a call on 9790 5158 they will mail you a price list and you can work out the exact price for your boat.

I would not trust copper swages on standing rigging, and I doubt if your insurance company would accept them.

I used a similar product to the Sta-lok a few years ago and they worked out fine.
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Old 31-08-2009, 08:18   #11
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I don't mean to disagree with other shipmates but I think the ferrules and thimble for the 1 x 19 wire will be just great. I would trust them more than any of the other systems mentioned and they are quite a bit less expensive. They are easy to check each time you go out sailing. I always use two ferrules with my splice but that, by some, is considered overkill.
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Old 31-08-2009, 08:26   #12
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Old 31-08-2009, 08:41   #13
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I am lost - skiprjohn - do you mean you splice 1x19?

But I can see the point if the 1x19 is very small dia then perhaps one can use ferrules/nicopress on a smaller boat. But then why not use the 7x19?

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Old 31-08-2009, 09:07   #14
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dove, i'm only going to tell you MY experiences. what happens for others is THEIR experience and i have no control over it.

i rerigged a 25 foot folkboat and a 27 foot albin vega. both with my swage-it tool and nicopress fittings. i sailed the folkboat for about six years and the vega for four years.

i didn't have any rigging failures. if there was any stretch in the rigging i didn't notice it because i use turnbuckles (i think you guys down under call them 'bottle screws') to adjust my rigging. i did use TWO oval sleeves at each end, but that's because i'm just a bit overcautious. i've seen boats with just one sleeve per end.

i sold the vega after four years. about four years later i crossed paths with her in the bahamas and she still had the rigging i had put on her. still in excellent condition.

i'm going to reach out a little bit here and assume you have a small low priced boat. not a gold plater. you don't want, or can't, afford top notch rigging costs, and you probably don't need them anyway. (i was all of the above). when you've finished doing the job you will know more about your boat then the guys who call in a rigger at the first sign of corrosion. it pains me to see how many 'sailors' there are out there today who know little or nothing about their basic boat systems and would probably be in big trouble if they ever got into a serious situation.

unless you have an enormous sail area i think 3/16" will work fine. that's what i used. be sure to use a thimble at each fitting.

and speaking of corrosion, you will find that it's usually the lower end of the wire that has trouble first. that's because water drips down the wire and lays inside the fitting, more with swage on than with sta-lock. but nicopress lets the water drip right on down through the fitting and out the bottom end. no corrosion!

so don't be afraid to do it yourself. were not talking an americas cup racer here. and as far as resale value goes i don't think it will affect it at all. didn't affect me and i sold two boats like that.
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Old 31-08-2009, 10:03   #15
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There's a good article by Nigel Calder regarding synthetic rigging in this month's Sail Mag. If I'm remembering right synthetic, including Dynex Dux, needs a cover for UV protection and Chafing protection also.
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