Rigger's suggestion for cutter...

[Amgine]

I spoke with a rigger a couple hours ago about possibly adding an inner stay on my boat.

He actually suggested against it. Instead he suggested I install a well-secured tack fitting to the deck, tied into a bulkhead, and an appropriate fitting aloft for the halyard and running backstays. The staysail would actually be a wire-luff sail, cut to serve as a storm jib I assume.

His reasoning is the sail would be quite small in area, and its luff could easily be tensioned via a halyard. If positioned properly in line with the mainsail's head when reefed it could help keep the mast in column. And when the sail isn't wanted the foredeck is almost completely clear of obstructions other than a pad eye of sorts.

I'm kind of excited by the idea, actually. I can see several methods of arranging the halyard, depending on how lo-tek I want to be. But I'm wondering if anyone here has seen such an arrangement? (I've sailed with wire luffs before, just not as an intermediate stay.) Ideas? thoughts?

[Wotname]

Just thinking aloud - use spectra (sp?) instead of wire for luff???

[Amgine]

I'd plan on working with the sailmaker about this, and I kinda expect a dacron rope luff - for this short length - will probably work out as good as the wire. Besides, the wire luff is a real pain to stow.

What I'm thinking on most is how to spread the load at the tack, and how rig the halyard. I've got some ideas involving a metal angle and the anchor well bulkhead, but I'm trying to visualize an in-the-mast halyard the rigger was talking about and completely failing.

If I could figure out how to attach a tang to an aluminum mast... a block at the front and a simple pair of runners should be easily managed. I could even add a 2:1 purchase with that, when flying the staysail and the jib.

[DeepFrz]

I wonder about the flogging as you raise the sail, with no stay to keep it in check? Many staysail stays have a quick release lever that allows you to move the stay back to the mast or to the toe rail out of the way.

Just a thought.

[Wotname]

Amgine,

You want to read this thread also http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...dea-12762.html
I am not hijacking your thread but I am offering my idea below in the hope it may help you one way or another.

At this stage I am getting closer to finalising my storm staysail arrangement. I still plan to hoist only to the spreader height and have been looking at various ways of fitting "temporary" running backstays to support the mast column when hoisted rather than just relying on the aft lower shouds. Most ways were messy and in my book, that is a bad thing on a cruising boat.

I am now toying with the idea of a specta luffed storm jib hoisted by a dedicated spectra halyard (on a block at the spreader band) with the tack going to the bow (forestay) chainplate - so not really a inner forestay at all.

To brace the mast, I am thinking on having two "running backstays" also attached to the top of the luff rope. These will go to hard points at aft end of cockpit where a "normal" running backstay would terminate.

The idea being there is no permanent inner forestay or any permanent running backstays.

Remembering my planned arrangement is only for a storm staysail rather than a working staysail, the way to hoist will be:

Sail flaked against rope luff and well stopped with wool (or similar).
Head of sail permanently attached to luff rope somewhat down from luff rope end and tack end has a tensioning line to the tack end attachment point.
Permanent sheets attached to clew.
Attach tack end of luff rope to bow chainplate (and secure tension control line), attach head end of luff rope to halyard.
Hoist and take windward running backstay (also permanently attached to top end of luff rope) to its hardpoint.
Temporary secure leeward running backstay and windward sheet.
Rig leeward sheet and tension it to break the stopping and release sail.
Rig windward sheet and leeward running backstay.
Go below and have coffee.

Now if anyone thinks this is silly idea, please tell me because it well may be .

[Amgine]

I'd want to take a close look at how your stormsail might affect the center of effort. One of the reasons I was looking at the inner stay was as a possible storm sail for the extreme storm when the main must be completely dropped. The CE for my current storm jib is far enough forward that I believe it will result in lee helm. By bring the head down the mast and bringing the tack aft the CE is only slightly changed with the main removed, and quite a bit further back from the bow.

[Paul L]

Wotname,
I'm afraid what you describe sounds better in theory than in it would be in practice. You are going to raise a free-luff storm sail with 5 points essentially not secure - 2 sheets, 2 running backs and the head. When you do this in strong winds it is going to be a Chinese firedrill on the foredeck. I think you might at least consider setting up the running backs as permanent. They are going to rope anyway, so they aren't that bad. Consider the conditions you will be using this in, consider how tired you might be. This needs to be a simple operation, or it isn't safe.

Paul L

[Wotname]

Paul, rather than continuing to hijack Amgine's thread, I have posted my reply on my original stormsail thread (on the link above).

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Amgine

I'd want to take a close look at how your stormsail might affect the center of effort. One of the reasons I was looking at the inner stay was as a possible storm sail for the extreme storm when the main must be completely dropped. The CE for my current storm jib is far enough forward that I believe it will result in lee helm. By bring the head down the mast and bringing the tack aft the CE is only slightly changed with the main removed, and quite a bit further back from the bow.

The CE will be slightly aft than of that of the original sail plan and slightly lower - both of which as good IMO. You are correct in suggesting that bring the tack aft will move the CE aft but I am trying to get away from making another hardpoint on the foredeck and also, in my case, the existing dedicated stormsail sheet fairleads would also have to be moved if tack is moved aft.

[perchance]

I have this set up on my boat. A pad eye on the fore deck behind the head stay for the high cut stay sail with a wire luff. I use the spinaker halyard to fly it but i could use the jib halyard as my sails are hanked on. The stay sail is close to mast in this position so I don't think lee helm would be a problem but since i haven't flown it it high winds i can't really say for sure. I hope to put it the test this summer to see if it will work in more realistic conditions and try not to scare the hell out of myself but if I don't try it out I'll never know. The boat is a 26 foot mast head rig with an adjustable backstay.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Amgine

I'd want to take a close look at how your stormsail might affect the center of effort. One of the reasons I was looking at the inner stay was as a possible storm sail for the extreme storm when the main must be completely dropped. The CE for my current storm jib is far enough forward that I believe it will result in lee helm. By bring the head down the mast and bringing the tack aft the CE is only slightly changed with the main removed, and quite a bit further back from the bow.

I've been considering this myself. I've looked at both the baby stay with running back stays and the solent stay.

It seems the baby stay set up would give my mast more support in extreme conditions. But the solent stay would require a little less rigging.

I've attached a temporary baby stay between the spinnaker pole cunningham and a deck eye in the center of the "J" to see how it would run. It did great except for the pumping of the mast (w/o running back stays).

It's a hard choice but I myself am leaning towards the baby stay, mostly in part because I only swing out my boom to 60º max and ease out the loosefooted mainsail the rest for down wind, which allows me to leave the running back stays in place for the most part. As well I'll be able to use that cunningham as the halyard for the inner jib. The deck fitting is right on a bulkhead that can have a chainplate added.

I don't know how your mast is rigged so I would think it'll come down to how yours is set up to what would be best.