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Old 11-12-2017, 17:29   #1
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Retrofitting Downwind Poles

On the Fwd Mast of my schooner rig, I would like to set up downwind poles, similar to what Delos has.

ie..short mast to shared stay strut, then an outboard pole, that can be deployed and independently guyed or folded aft easily.

Does this type have a special name for parts and where would I research?

The present pole is just too long and cumbersome for short handed deployment.Click image for larger version

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Old 11-12-2017, 18:00   #2
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

The very specific rig you are asking about is unique to Amel, as far as I know. You might be able to piece one together from various standard parts.

The best thing to do is to go look at an Amel Maramu or Super Maramu to see how they work. Be aware that what makes this rig special is a lot more than just the poles.

This blog post will get you a bit more detail:
https://fetchinketch.net/2016/06/26/...d-sailing-rig/
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Old 11-12-2017, 18:36   #3
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post

The best thing to do is to go look at an Amel Maramu or Super Maramu to see how they work. Be aware that what makes this rig special is a lot more than just the poles.

This blog post will get you a bit more detail:
https://fetchinketch.net/2016/06/26/...d-sailing-rig/
Thanks billknny for the link

What a fantastic userfriendly solution and I agree I would not be able to retrofit its sophistication without major changes.

What I was hoping to find is detail closeups of all end fittings, so I can copy

The fixed Mast fitting for strut pole and how it locks in and detaches.

The rod pieces to share the shroud loads

The strut and whisker pole union that allows the poles to be deployed or stored...(without chatter)

I already have deck and masthead fitting for second forestay, for balloon jib that I would need to simply hank on or run a 2nd topmast furling stay from the further aft stay sail position.

That all needs to be thought out, once the poles are made.Click image for larger version

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Old 11-12-2017, 18:52   #4
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Some of our most enjoyable sailing on our Amel has been running straight downwind for days on end with the twin poles out. Comfortable and easy. If it's not obvious, the main and mizzen are furled, so no booms to worry about gybing.

With twin sails poled out, we can point as high as 160 degrees to the true wind, so it works best for a true run. Below 8 knots true, our downwind VMG is faster if we head up a bit and reach, but above 8 knots, our best VMG is with the poles out and running true.

I'll try to get pictures of the fittings posted tomorrow.
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Old 11-12-2017, 22:35   #5
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Thanks billknny
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:22   #6
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Pelegic,

I have updated the blog post I with some details of the pole fittings. I doubt you'll be able to duplicate exactly, but at least you'll see how the parts work together.

https://fetchinketch.net/2016/06/26/...d-sailing-rig/
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:46   #7
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Pelegic,

I have updated the blog post I with some details of the pole fittings. I doubt you'll be able to duplicate exactly, but at least you'll see how the parts work together.

https://fetchinketch.net/2016/06/26/...d-sailing-rig/
Very well done! I always meant to put something together on our blog showing the same..... but never got around to it.

What year is your SM? On our 1994 SM the inboard pole socket assemblies were Harken, not FranceSpar. They look virtually identical to yours.

Pelagic. I can safely say, if you copy the system, you'll LOVE it. It always amazed me how many cruisers will debate endlessly the merits of (and spend a small fortune on) various safety equipment few will ever use (ie. liferafts, Epirbs, drogues, parachute anchors, etc, etc), but will launch out with a poorly set up (and often unsafe for short-handed crew) pole system for downwind work, that they will likely use hundreds of time.....
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Old 12-12-2017, 15:36   #8
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Pelegic,

I have updated the blog post I with some details of the pole fittings. I doubt you'll be able to duplicate exactly, but at least you'll see how the parts work together.

https://fetchinketch.net/2016/06/26/...d-sailing-rig/
These pole details are very helpful and at first study, looks both brilliant in its simplicity and doable for my 65 ft Stargazer.

I am heading down to boat this morning to study the ergonomics.

Great to know that the pole ends were made by an international subcontractor. Hopefully I can identify who is making them and order directly or via Amels, if they will allow?

As a guideline,
How high above deck level is your Jockey Pole fixed to shrouds?

How long is the outboard pole?

Thanks again for your help
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Old 12-12-2017, 17:59   #9
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

As a guideline,
How high above deck level is your Jockey Pole fixed to shrouds?

How long is the outboard pole?

Thanks again for your help
I can tell you the jockey pole is about 5' 11" above the deck. I know this because I am 6' 1" and try to walk under it from time to time...

The length from the mast to the end of the pole should be about equal to the foot of your genoa.

You want the height to be such that the sheet goes from the clew to the pole, to the turning block without making any sharp turns. The pole should be almost entirely under compression, without significant force up or down or fore and aft.
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Old 12-12-2017, 18:02   #10
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie_ind View Post
Very well done! I always meant to put something together on our blog showing the same..... but never got around to it.

What year is your SM? On our 1994 SM the inboard pole socket assemblies were Harken, not FranceSpar. They look virtually identical to yours.

Pelagic. I can safely say, if you copy the system, you'll LOVE it. It always amazed me how many cruisers will debate endlessly the merits of (and spend a small fortune on) various safety equipment few will ever use (ie. liferafts, Epirbs, drogues, parachute anchors, etc, etc), but will launch out with a poorly set up (and often unsafe for short-handed crew) pole system for downwind work, that they will likely use hundreds of time.....
Hobie, We are Hull #160, laid down in 1996.
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Old 12-12-2017, 18:05   #11
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Thanks again,
I was wondering, do you generally leave the Jocky poles in position....?
I can see them being handy for a foredeck awning in the tropics?
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Old 12-12-2017, 18:32   #12
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

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Thanks again,
I was wondering, do you generally leave the Jocky poles in position....?
I can see them being handy for a foredeck awning in the tropics?
When sailing I do not leave the jockey poles up when they are not being used. Primarily because the end fittings prevent me from sheeting the jib in all the way when going up wind. That last few inches makes a really big difference in the boat's pointing angle. It is also possible to shag a sheet in them during a tack.

But they do make great awning poles at anchor!

Some people leave the pole hooked to the rail all the time, feeling that they give extra security while moving about on deck.
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Old 13-12-2017, 06:29   #13
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

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Thanks again,
I was wondering, do you generally leave the Jocky poles in position....?
I can see them being handy for a foredeck awning in the tropics?
We left our jockey poles in virtually all of the time. I also rigged the main poles before every crossing, with them run back and hooked on the rail, and ran all of the lines before pulling anchor. That way it was an easy 1 person job in pretty much any conditions to put a pole out. Each to his own.
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Old 13-12-2017, 07:42   #14
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Would have the Amel owners group have more information on their Yahoo group/website?
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/info
I scanned it just now, but could not see much information.
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Old 13-12-2017, 10:49   #15
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Re: Retrofitting Downwind Poles

Thanks Hobie and Hank for the added links.

I will contact both Harken and Amels for advice on procurement.
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