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Old 03-02-2016, 09:08   #1
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Removing triatic form Ketch rig

I have heard that I could remove the Triatic from my 38 Ketch rig? Some say it may be an advantage because the masts are then separated and one could go overboard and not pull the other in. It is also a lot of weight up that high. I rarely adjust it due to the need to climb the Mizzen and it requires going aloft every year spring and fall to raise and lower sticks. What about a jumper from the mast head to the middle of the mast to keep upr section straight? Im looking for any ideas or thoughts ect. Thanks
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Old 03-02-2016, 15:08   #2
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

The triatic stops the mizzen falling aft. Unless you have a lot of forward drift in your mizzen lowers, and jumpers or something the mizzen is going to get dangerously floppy without a triatic.

I have seen triatic stays running though a block at the mizzen mast head and terminating lower on the mast. More compression in the mast, but much better than no traitic and easy to adjust/remove.
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Old 03-02-2016, 17:02   #3
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

Old guy working on boat in boat yard, climbs rear mast , removes Triattic. Is immediately flung aft into the dirt, dead. Be careful


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Old 03-02-2016, 17:30   #4
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

Mine is not made with a triatic, but it was clearly designed that way. There's a ketch in the slip with mine that has a triatic and I would imagine what Snowpetral advises would come true if he removed his.

My Mizzen has forward stays that keep it from bending back.
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Old 04-02-2016, 06:34   #5
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

I think the point here is that the triatic stay does not operate in a vacuum. It is only one part of the standing rigging, which operates as an integrated system. If you do not understand how that whole system works together, and what the effects are of each individual component, then it would strike me as supremely foolish to start pulling bits and pieces out.
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Old 04-02-2016, 06:53   #6
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

as there is minimal weight aloft from a triatic, and as there is more positive work under load with the triatic aiding the rig movement--mine is a kinetic rig--all works together, as is case with ketch rigs, i enjoy my triatic. i want to install a second one. i want one at masthead and one at spreaders. i also want more sails, so it will be a prep for that. also is better antenna location for radios. my insulated antenna currently is a main back stay.
a deck stepped mizzen needs support to prevent dismasting.
a keel stepped mizzen needs a support to move with the rest of rig in winds. doesnt make sense to remove the kinicity of rig and symmetry of rig merely because you think 2 pounds of stuff in air is too much. ridiculous reason to molest a functioning system.
have you ever considered the fact the designer took the weights of rig into mind when designing the boat...and you think you can do better than the designer?

just donot place a wind genny on masthead of mizzen. THAT is a lot of weight and will cause damages.
triatic prevents damages,.
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Old 04-02-2016, 08:42   #7
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Originally Posted by brantleychuck View Post
Old guy working on boat in boat yard, climbs rear mast , removes Triattic. Is immediately flung aft into the dirt, dead. Be careful


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Now that's just silly. Every time I've removed my triatic, I've tied a halyard forward to support the mast. And loosened off the backstay. I had to loosen the bottlescrew last week and every time I turned it, the whole mast shook. Not fun.

In answer to the OP, why remove it? If it's part of the rig, I'd leave it in place - or do what Amel's do, and have a line running from the main masthead, back through a block in the top of the mizzen, then straight down to a winch and clutch.

Another ketch in Nazare had no mizzen but as well as forward and aft lowers, had forward and aft stays from the top of the mizzen (no triatic and no backstay). They also had a wind gen atop the mizzen, which seemed ok.

Just take your time with the triatic and you'll be fine. Sure, it can be a pain tuning the triatic, plus your main backstay(s), plus your mizzen backstay(s) - for that reason I'd go with what Amels have - but otherwise it's part of your rig so I'd leave it where it is

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Old 04-02-2016, 09:12   #8
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridger View Post
I have heard that I could remove the Triatic from my 38’ Ketch rig? Some say it may be an advantage because the masts are then separated and one could go overboard and not pull the other in. It is also a lot of weight up that high. I rarely adjust it due to the need to climb the Mizzen and it requires going aloft every year spring and fall to raise and lower sticks. What about a jumper from the mast head to the middle of the mast to keep upr section straight? I’m looking for any ideas or thoughts ect. Thanks
Hi Bridger,

I suspect you will discover your concern about weight is not valid if you do the math.

If you are worried about one half of your rig taking down the other half, it may be time to replace your standing rigging to mitigate that possibility and assuage your concerns.

[Added on edit: If you still feel weight is a concern, it might be worth making the change I mention below- leading the triatic stay down the front of the mizzen mast- and replacing the SS wire rope with Dyneema or equivalent.]

A change you may want to consider implementing:

Our triatic stay passes through a block at the mizzen mast head down the front of the mizzen mast to a turnbuckle mounted about boom height on the front of the mizzen. Easy to adjust/remove from that position.

The triatic is integral to our rig and even though we have good high placement on the mizzen of the forward shrouds, ours could not be removed without compromising rig integrity.

Even if it could be removed, I cannot justify a reason for doing so.

A side note that may interest some as relates to the triatic as an HF antenna: The previous owner also added insulators to the horizontal portion of the triatic stay between the two mast heads and made it part of the HF radio antenna- along with one of the two split backstays to the main mast. A jumper ties the backstay antenna portion to the triatic stay antenna portion. He reported measurable, worthwhile improvements with the HF/MF radio [ICOM M710 at the time] and I can say it does work very well. But I haven't tried it without the triatic portion of the antenna included [i.e., backstay only...] so I have no comparison information of my own.

In hopes this is helpful.

Cheers!

Bill
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:47   #9
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Originally Posted by wrwakefield View Post
I suspect you will discover your concern about weight is not valid if you do the math.
Yeah, that was my thought, too. Unless you're using 3/8ths" chain for a triatic stay, it is definitely NOT a lot of weight!
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:02   #10
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Mine is not made with a triatic, but it was clearly designed that way.
Same with mine; a 32' Conyplex Contest CS. It has the typical 3 sidestays per side and a running backstay, but that's it. The "spread" on the sidestays isn't very dramatic, but my mizzen likely isn't as tall as yours. The running backstay snubs the tendency of the mizzen to rake forward when carrying sail, but nothing (except the sidestays) prevents the mast from raking aft. I guess the designer's intent is that nothing pushes the mizzen aft enough that the sidestays can't handle it. How tall is your mizzen?
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:16   #11
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

Our mizzen will stand without the triatic, but pumps, and gets pulled aft by the mizzen sheet when close hauled.
If the mizzen shrouds (unlike ours) have a large fore aft spread to support the mast you be ok. But if like ours, then it's critical for mast support, even though the load on it at any given time is minimal.


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Old 04-02-2016, 11:55   #12
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Another ketch in Nazare had no mizzen but as well as forward and aft lowers, had forward and aft stays from the top of the mizzen (no triatic and no backstay). They also had a wind gen atop the mizzen, which seemed ok.
Do you remember where the forward stay of the mizzen was leading to without getting in the way of the main-boom?

Cheers & happy sailing 2morro
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:19   #13
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Do you remember where the forward stay of the mizzen was leading to without getting in the way of the main-boom?

Cheers & happy sailing 2morro
Dody
Hey Dody,

I seem to think the forward mizzen stays give *just* enough clearance for the main boom to swing past ok.

You know the boat I'm talking about, right?

(PS - we made it to Cascais ok but still miss being in Nazare!!!)

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Old 09-02-2016, 18:00   #14
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

Hi wrwakefield, thanks for your response. I think the best way to go is with the set up you have with a sheave at the top of the Mizzen, cable running down the front of the Mast to a turnbuckle attached to the Mast. What diameter sheave do you have up top and how is the attachment to the mast handled? I'm assuming the wire is tight enough that there's no slap to the mast, right? thanks, climbing the mast is getting old.
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Old 09-02-2016, 21:01   #15
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Re: Removing triatic form Ketch rig

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Originally Posted by Bridger View Post
Hi wrwakefield, thanks for your response. I think the best way to go is with the set up you have with a sheave at the top of the Mizzen, cable running down the front of the Mast to a turnbuckle attached to the Mast. What diameter sheave do you have up top and how is the attachment to the mast handled? I'm assuming the wire is tight enough that there's no slap to the mast, right? thanks, climbing the mast is getting old.
Hi Bridger,

I'm not on the boat right now, but I found 3 photos that show how ours is set-up:
  • The triatic stay block on the mizzen mast head [with an insulator showing...]
  • The turnbuckle and mount at boom level on the forward side of the mizzen mast
    Edit: Note in this close-up that our Mizzen boom gooseneck is on a slide so the boom can be raised above head height for keeping the aft deck accessible when the mizzen sail is not in use.
  • And I cropped the tall skinny shot taken from a distance [so it isn't as in focus as it could be...] showing the triatic stay coming behind the radar mount down to the turnbuckle on the face of the mizzen mast.

    The intent of the last shot is to provide perspective for the mast rake. [Brion Toss tuned the rig right before these photos were taken, so everything is as it should be...]

RE: Does the triatic stay slap the mast?

No. It is very taught, and apparently has adequate clearance from the mast.

Ours comes within ~1 inch of the mast due to the rake of the mast, but no issues noticed [so far in 70+ knot gusts.] If it was closer to the mast and/or slapping, one could attach a few [small] closed eyes to the face of the mast and run the stay through them to reduce the chances of any vibration/slapping.]

And I just happened to run across this similar discussion on Brion's SparTalk forum you might find interesting...

I hope the photos are helpful and that your project goes well.

Cheers!

Bill
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