"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

[rhumbunctious]

One of the significant drawbacks to a roller furled headsail is the combination of poor sail shape as well as stress on the roller furler when using the sail in a partially furled state, particularly in heavy weather.

I've long been thinking about whether it would be beneficial to add a kind of "storm jib reefing point" in a roller furled headsail which would behave similarly to e.g. an ATN Gale Sail, consisting of two reinforced grommets with a sewn in length of Dyneema between them, and a length of Dyneema the same length as the distance between the grommets, permanently atttached to the top grommet (or even just an extension of the line sewn in to the sail) and clipped to the bottom grommet when not in use. When needed, it would be unclipped from the bottom grommet and attached to a second halyard, and a specially measured Dyneema tack line, of precisely the correct length from deck to grommet, would be attached to the lower grommet, and then the second halyard pulled tight. See diagram (not exactly to scale):



The red line is the sewn-in Dyneema length and the green lines are the pre-measured Dyneema halyard and tack lines.

Obviously, a solution like this wouldn't work for anything other than near the endmost section of the headsail, lest it mess up the shape of the sail, but for "storm jib" functionality, I'm thinking there may be real benefit, as it would be faster/easier to rig than a separate storm jib, would produce a better leading edge, would remove stress from the furler (and rest of the furled sail), and help prevent the furled portion of the sail from unrolling. And if the halyard is also Dyneema, it would collectively provide a second backup forestay, making the entire rig more robust in heavy weather.

Or is this just madness...? ;-)

[jim_thomsen]

It might make sense, but from my point of view, when you have the jib really small the shape is not that critical. On our most recent trip it seemed we used that size often. If you have a cutter stay, then I think having a storm jib closer to the center of the boat works best. When offshore we keep the storm jib on deck and ready to hoist (I copied a sail bag from Beth & Evan's Hawk).

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by jim_thomsen

It might make sense, but from my point of view, when you have the jib really small the shape is not that critical. ...

True. I'm mostly thinking about it for the ease/strength/robustness/redundancy aspects rather than sail shape. And to reduce stress on the headsail and furler.

It would also serve as a backup, even if a separate storm jib was available for use -- as a sort of "light storm jib".

If you have a cutter stay, then I think having a storm jib closer to the center of the boat works best. When offshore we keep the storm jib on deck and ready to hoist (I copied a sail bag from Beth & Evan's Hawk).

No cutter stay and too much work to change my rig around to have one, and as I sail a ketch, having the storm jib farther forward is OK and balances well with a reefed mizzen.

[bewitched]

Presumably the furling sail is of a much lighter cloth weight than needed for a storm jib. So surely the sail will just blow out if ever used in strong wind?

Also, if that kind of weather is on its way, wouldn't you want to get the furling sail off and put something more appropriate up?

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by bewitched

Presumably the furling sail is of a much lighter cloth weight than needed for a storm jib. So surely the sail will just blow out if ever used in strong wind?

For light genoas, yes, though I'm thinking about this mod for my 100% working jib (which will be 10oz dacron).

Also, if that kind of weather is on its way, wouldn't you want to get the furling sail off and put something more appropriate up?

Yes, though it could serve as a "light storm jib" in lieu of dropping the furling headsail and putting up a true storm jib if things are really snotty.

[boden36]

May work from a mechanical angle, but you will be carrying your sail pretty high for storm conditions when you really need it down low.
Regards,
Richard.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by boden36

May work from a mechanical angle, but you will be carrying your sail pretty high for storm conditions when you really need it down low.
Regards,
Richard.

That is true, and I wouldn't use this to entirely replace a "proper" storm jib. Rather, I'm thinking of this as a "light storm jib", and the position of the sail remaining in use is anyway exactly where it would be when using the headsail mostly furled, and folks do that all the time with reasonable success (not perfect success, but reasonable ;-)

[bigpuff]

iv allways found if i have time(3to6 hrs.)nowing im in for areal blow,45 and over,roll her up as tight as i can or better still drop the sail and clear the decks and set a good strong s,sail.i have sailed in 50 kts. with a very small bit of furler out and 3 reefs in the main,reasonbly comfee the rum helped.if yuo have sea room then a 3rd. reef in the main is a good option.any lines court around a furler in a blow can be a b&*^#d.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by bigpuff

iv allways found if i have time(3to6 hrs.)nowing im in for areal blow,45 and over,roll her up as tight as i can or better still drop the sail and clear the decks and set a good strong s,sail.i have sailed in 50 kts. with a very small bit of furler out and 3 reefs in the main,reasonbly comfee the rum helped.if yuo have sea room then a 3rd. reef in the main is a good option.any lines court around a furler in a blow can be a b&*^#d.

The point about the second halyard preventing fast furling of the remainder of the headsail is something I hadn't fully considered, and probably nixes the whole idea for me, actually.

Being able to drop sail quickly becomes more important the harder the blow, so better to just continue with the tried and true method of full furl, or remove the headsail and run up the storm jib on its own removable Dyneema halyard/stay.

[gjordan]

You mentioned that it would be too much work to mount an inner forestay. I think that in the long run a removable inner forestay would be a lot less work, because you would not need to change sails nearly as often. For offshore work your sail reduction (ignoring the main for this conversation) would be: wind picks up,drop the staysail, more wind, roll the headsail in to a safe amount for the weight of the sail, more wind and roll the headsail up and hoist the staysail again. You have gone to the foredeck but not the bow, and you have not had to remove a headsail from its foil in a rising wind. It is easy to loose control of a headsail on deck when it is only attached at the tack. If you reef the head sail for your first reef and leave the staysail up, and just roll the headsail as your next reduction, you havent even left the cockpit. For weekend sails remove the inner forestay and use your boat as you always have. A double headsail rig has a lot going for it. My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by jim_thomsen

It might make sense, but from my point of view, when you have the jib really small the shape is not that critical. On our most recent trip it seemed we used that size often. If you have a cutter stay, then I think having a storm jib closer to the center of the boat works best. When offshore we keep the storm jib on deck and ready to hoist (I copied a sail bag from Beth & Evan's Hawk).

"If you have a cutter stay" -- presumably this fellow does not. Neither do I. I have an original Hood 810 roller furler, which I enthusiastically dislike. the drum has no teeth, and no brake. Incredibly, the previous owner paid for a really good headsail with a foam luff designed to alllow the headsail to be partially deployed without deforming. But the Hood 810 fully deploys. Take it out part way and it will save you the trouble of finishing the job yourself whether you want it or not.

Last Wed. I took my boat out with predicted winds of 10 - 15 mph. However, we had 25 mph winds, and we were seriously overpowered. We turned the motor on, pointed the boat into the wind and pulled the headsail in completely, but then the boat was not balanced properly. We were in better control but if we'd been able to reduce both the headsail and the mainsail (which has an excellent reefing system) it would have been a great sail in spite of the wind.

Hood says the only solution is to replace the lower unit, now priced at $520. That seems a lot of money to upgrade a 1983 roller furler.

The idea above seems so simple, but I would still need some way to keep the rest of the sail from deploying behind it anyway.

Any suggestions?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"If you have a cutter stay" -- presumably this fellow does not. Neither do I. I have an original Hood 810 roller furler, which I enthusiastically dislike. the drum has no teeth, and no brake. Incredibly, the previous owner paid for a really good headsail with a foam luff designed to alllow the headsail to be partially deployed without deforming. But the Hood 810 fully deploys. Take it out part way and it will save you the trouble of finishing the job yourself whether you want it or not.

Last Wed. I took my boat out with predicted winds of 10 - 15 mph. However, we had 25 mph winds, and we were seriously overpowered. We turned the motor on, pointed the boat into the wind and pulled the headsail in completely, but then the boat was not balanced properly. We were in better control but if we'd been able to reduce both the headsail and the mainsail (which has an excellent reefing system) it would have been a great sail in spite of the wind.

Hood says the only solution is to replace the lower unit, now priced at $520. That seems a lot of money to upgrade a 1983 roller furler.

The idea above seems so simple, but I would still need some way to keep the rest of the sail from deploying behind it anyway.

Any suggestions?

By "other suggestions" I meant for the rig I have now, not a cutter rig, or changing headsails. I'm hoping to find a way to reef this sail in an emergency.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by gjordan

You mentioned that it would be too much work to mount an inner forestay. I think that in the long run a removable inner forestay would be a lot less work, because you would not need to change sails nearly as often. For offshore work your sail reduction (ignoring the main for this conversation) would be: wind picks up,drop the staysail, more wind, roll the headsail in to a safe amount for the weight of the sail, more wind and roll the headsail up and hoist the staysail again. You have gone to the foredeck but not the bow, and you have not had to remove a headsail from its foil in a rising wind. It is easy to loose control of a headsail on deck when it is only attached at the tack. If you reef the head sail for your first reef and leave the staysail up, and just roll the headsail as your next reduction, you havent even left the cockpit. For weekend sails remove the inner forestay and use your boat as you always have. A double headsail rig has a lot going for it. My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

I should probably have mentioned that (a) my boat is a ketch, (b) my headsails are all hank-on, with a roller furler designed to work with hank-on sails. But it's an all or nothing roller. It's not designed to be used with the sail partially furled. Hence my thinking about this approach to reinforcement.

My rig also has a baby stay, and a removable forestay would also need to go where my dinghy is stored on the foredeck (the only reasonable place for it, being a hard dinghy). So too much to change around/rework/rethink to go with a removable forestay. Also, I can balance things very easily having a ketch such that a second headsail doesn't offer quite as much utility as it would a sloop.

[Rakuflames]

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan
You mentioned that it would be too much work to mount an inner forestay. I think that in the long run a removable inner forestay would be a lot less work, because you would not need to change sails nearly as often. For offshore work your sail reduction (ignoring the main for this conversation) would be: wind picks up,drop the staysail, more wind, roll the headsail in to a safe amount for the weight of the sail, more wind and roll the headsail up and hoist the staysail again. You have gone to the foredeck but not the bow, and you have not had to remove a headsail from its foil in a rising wind. It is easy to loose control of a headsail on deck when it is only attached at the tack. If you reef the head sail for your first reef and leave the staysail up, and just roll the headsail as your next reduction, you havent even left the cockpit. For weekend sails remove the inner forestay and use your boat as you always have. A double headsail rig has a lot going for it. My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

I should probably have mentioned that (a) my boat is a ketch, (b) my headsails are all hank-on, with a roller furler designed to work with hank-on sails. But it's an all or nothing roller. It's not designed to be used with the sail partially furled. Hence my thinking about this approach to reinforcement.

My rig also has a baby stay, and a removable forestay would also need to go where my dinghy is stored on the foredeck (the only reasonable place for it, being a hard dinghy). So too much to change around/rework/rethink to go with a removable forestay. Also, I can balance things very easily having a ketch such that a second headsail doesn't offer quite as much utility as it would a sloop.
_______"


Exactly. For me to put in a second forestay I would have to put on a bowsprit, move the forestay, which would then not be long enough. It's a very expenvise proposition.

What I am looking for is EXACTLY what the OP was talking about -- a way to furl the headsail when it is on a roller furler that does not partially furl.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"
...

What I am looking for is EXACTLY what the OP was talking about -- a way to furl the headsail when it is on a roller furler that does not partially furl.

Looks like we may have a volunteer to do some destructive testing of the idea:

"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

So you may want to follow the related discussion in that other forum regarding results, etc.

I also plan to do some of my own tests with my old worn out jib, once I get my new one, and if I'm happy with the results, I'll then make the appropriate modifications to the new jib.

I think that the new 10 oz offshore jib, with the additional reinforcements, would be able to serve as a convenient and reasonable "light storm jib" and be able to handle some fairly snotty weather before having to move to the "proper" heavy storm jib (possibly never needing to move to it at all).