"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by rhumbunctious

The point about the second halyard preventing fast furling of the remainder of the headsail is something I hadn't fully considered, and probably nixes the whole idea for me, actually.

Being able to drop sail quickly becomes more important the harder the blow, so better to just continue with the tried and true method of full furl, or remove the headsail and run up the storm jib on its own removable Dyneema halyard/stay.

Thinking about this a bit more, I'm actually not worried about the second halyard and tack line preventing quick furling of the entire sail, as I can just blow the tack line and loosen the second halyard and furl it up easily, even with a small bit of wrap of the second halyard, or even blow the second tack line, let the headsail fully unfurl (which the second halyard wouldn't interfere with) and release both halyards to drop it quickly to the deck to secure or remove, same as usual when dropping a hank on headsail.

So the extra reef point and lines shouldn't introduce any significant risk or problems if I need to get rid of all of the headsail quickly.

[capngeo]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"If you have a cutter stay" -- presumably this fellow does not. Neither do I. I have an original Hood 810 roller furler, which I enthusiastically dislike. the drum has no teeth, and no brake. But the Hood 810 fully deploys. Take it out part way and it will save you the trouble of finishing the job yourself whether you want it or not.
That seems a lot of money to upgrade a 1983 roller furler.

The idea above seems so simple, but I would still need some way to keep the rest of the sail from deploying behind it anyway.

Any suggestions?

I rigged a hook to a short piece of wire rope; made one end fast to a pad eye, the other (hook end) to the shackle on the top of the drum. The idea being a safety to unexpected full deployment. I hate the Hood continuous line system as well, but have found that keeping both sides of the furling line taught does wonders... I employ a double line clutch for the purpose. If I am particularly careful keeping tension on BOTH sides of the furling line, reefing seems to hold no special hazard. Havent "used" the safety yet, but have rigged it several times! The drawback of course is requiring a trip forward in heavy weather to release it.

[rhumbunctious]

After pondering a bit about how to do the sail modification in the easiest, simplest manner, I think a good solution would be to splice together a loop of Spectra or Dyneema which when folded together is roughly the same length as the distance between where the halyard and tack rope should attach to the headsail (i.e. the reef point), and then sew one half of the loop into the sail, leaving the other half exposed. No grommets. Just the line and perhaps some cloth overlay. Then, one can attach snap shackles at any point along that exposed half of the loop, including down low where easily reached, and when tensioned, the halyard and tack shackles will find the top and bottom apexes (apexii?) of the loop automatically. I.e.



Likewise, when the halyard is eased, the top shackle will drop down to where it is easily grasped, removed, secured, etc.

Simple, lightweight, minimal modification effort, and shouldn't impact performance of the headsail when not in use in any significant way.

I could imagine having 2 or or even 3 such "reef loops" in a headsail, for easy anchoring of the furled sail at each reef point.

And one could also use soft shackles, both for strength and to lessen the amount of heavy hardware possibly whipping about in a blow.

[roverhi]

Think the solution is to buy a reefable furling system. Furlers for hank on sails are only good for furling. Without a foil, the middle part of the sail is always going to be a bag if you try and reef. The idea of a second halyard seems like a lot of humbug. Dropping the sail, attaching the second halyard, rehoisting the sail and furling it and then tensioning the 2nd halyard seems, well, unreal.

Keep an eye out on Ebay. You should be able to find a reefable foil based furler for around 1 1/2 boat units and probably quite a bit less.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Think the solution is to buy a reefable furling system. Furlers for hank on sails are only good for furling. Without a foil, the middle part of the sail is always going to be a bag if you try and reef. The idea of a second halyard seems like a lot of humbug. Dropping the sail, attaching the second halyard, rehoisting the sail and furling it and then tensioning the 2nd halyard seems, well, unreal.

Keep an eye out on Ebay. You should be able to find a reefable foil based furler for around 1 1/2 boat units and probably quite a bit less.

Firstly, I won't give up my hank-on sails. A foil based furler introduces alot more issues, fragility, risk, and inflexibility than the system I already have, and have spent alot of time thinking about and putting into use.

As for the proposed reefing points, there would be no need to first drop the headsail. Just go forward, have the reefing tack rope and halyard at hand, furl to the reefing point, quickly attach secondary lines, tension, done. And possibly snug down the furler a bit behind the secondary "forestay" made up of the reefing lines, to tidy things up a bit.

Much less work than changing headsails (if, given the availability of such an option, changing to the proper storm jib is not absolutely needed).

And having the secondary "forestay" in front of the furled foresail should improve the shape and performance of the reefed sail -- possibly even providing a better shape than a foresail furled onto a foil.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by rhumbunctious

Firstly, I won't give up my hank-on sails. A foil based furler introduces alot more issues, fragility, risk, and inflexibility than the system I already have, and have spent alot of time thinking about and putting into use.

As for the proposed reefing points, there would be no need to first drop the headsail. Just go forward, have the reefing tack rope and halyard at hand, furl to the reefing point, quickly attach secondary lines, tension, done. And possibly snug down the furler a bit behind the secondary "forestay" made up of the reefing lines, to tidy things up a bit.

Much less work than changing headsails (if, given the availability of such an option, changing to the proper storm jib is not absolutely needed).

And having the secondary "forestay" in front of the furled foresail should improve the shape and performance of the reefed sail -- possibly even providing a better shape than a foresail furled onto a foil.

In fact, the reefing process should be even easier than that if the secondary tack and halyard lines are run aft. Just adjust the point of sail to that the bottom of the reef point loop is safely accessable, attach tack and halyard shackles, return to cockpit, furl in headsail to appropriate point, tension secondary tack and halyard. Done.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rhumbunctious

Looks like we may have a volunteer to do some destructive testing of the idea:

"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

So you may want to follow the related discussion in that other forum regarding results, etc.

I also plan to do some of my own tests with my old worn out jib, once I get my new one, and if I'm happy with the results, I'll then make the appropriate modifications to the new jib.

I think that the new 10 oz offshore jib, with the additional reinforcements, would be able to serve as a convenient and reasonable "light storm jib" and be able to handle some fairly snotty weather before having to move to the "proper" heavy storm jib (possibly never needing to move to it at all).

Destructive??? Not my favorite word ...

[Rakuflames]

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhumbunctious
Looks like we may have a volunteer to do some destructive testing of the idea:

"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

So you may want to follow the related discussion in that other forum regarding results, etc.

I also plan to do some of my own tests with my old worn out jib, once I get my new one, and if I'm happy with the results, I'll then make the appropriate modifications to the new jib.

I think that the new 10 oz offshore jib, with the additional reinforcements, would be able to serve as a convenient and reasonable "light storm jib" and be able to handle some fairly snotty weather before having to move to the "proper" heavy storm jib (possibly never needing to move to it at all).


Destructive??? Not my favorite word ..."

I don't see how this would keep the rest of the sail from deploying behind the Dyneema "line."

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhumbunctious
Looks like we may have a volunteer to do some destructive testing of the idea:

"Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

So you may want to follow the related discussion in that other forum regarding results, etc.

I also plan to do some of my own tests with my old worn out jib, once I get my new one, and if I'm happy with the results, I'll then make the appropriate modifications to the new jib.

I think that the new 10 oz offshore jib, with the additional reinforcements, would be able to serve as a convenient and reasonable "light storm jib" and be able to handle some fairly snotty weather before having to move to the "proper" heavy storm jib (possibly never needing to move to it at all).


Destructive??? Not my favorite word ..."

;-)

Better to destroy an old sail in a controlled manner than a new sail in an uncontrolled manner "out there"...

I don't see how this would keep the rest of the sail from deploying behind the Dyneema "line."

The roller furler would still be rolled tight via its furling line, but nearly all of the force of the wind will be pulling on the secondary "halyard" at the reef point, and thus little to no stress on the furler or furling line itself.

When you hear of partially furled headsails suddenly unfurling in a blow, it's usually because the furling line parted due to the stresses of using the furler/furling line to control the size of the headsail exposed to the wind.

If the new luff of the reefed headsail is taking all the forces, the furler and furling line have an easy time of it.

[hummingway]

What if you simply tied off the sail at the grommets? In an emergency you could still furl but it wouldn't unfurl past the grommets until the sail was untied.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by hummingway

What if you simply tied off the sail at the grommets? In an emergency you could still furl but it wouldn't unfurl past the grommets until the sail was untied.

Well, one of the goals is to reduce/remove stresses on the furler and furled sail, and I expect that tying off the headsail in that manner would add additional (and possibly unknown/unusual) stresses to the system, rather than reduce them.

[barnakiel]

I like this idea. I see some limitations and challenges but then again that's what makes life worth living.

Personally, I would just add an inner forestay and invest in a small jib with hanks as the simplest, most efficient, most -proof solution.

Still I do dig the idea. Will be back to read up others' opinions.

b.

[zeehag]

if you place a backed D ring in foredeck, you will have a baby stay placement. use that instead of the roller furling for a storm jib, if you are that concerned about it all. my ericson has one of those.
btw--there isnt such an entity as a cutter stay--is a forestaysail, not a cutter sail. having the forestaysail makes the sloop a cutter. with a ketch is a forestaysail ketch.

you all wanna be grammar police with me-earn the words and meanings.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by rhumbunctious

Well, one of the goals is to reduce/remove stresses on the furler and furled sail, and I expect that tying off the headsail in that manner would add additional (and possibly unknown/unusual) stresses to the system, rather than reduce them.

I don't see why it would put stress on the furler. The stress points would be the grommets and whatever line it's tied with. Even if the furler line wasn't cleated it couldn't unfurl so I would think that means no stress on the furler. It could, and likely would, rub the sail cloth at the ties though. That could be reduced using straps.

[rhumbunctious]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I like this idea. I see some limitations and challenges but then again that's what makes life worth living.

Personally, I would just add an inner forestay and invest in a small jib with hanks as the simplest, most efficient, most -proof solution.

Still I do dig the idea. Will be back to read up others' opinions.

b.

Yes, but (a) an inner forestay is not a reasonable option for me, and (b) this is not intended to replace a "proper" storm jib, but to provide an additional option which in may cases may be more than sufficient, easier, faster, and safer.