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Old 13-05-2012, 18:31   #46
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
They have wire or spectra in the luff. I presume you'd have to put a D ring on the deck?

I'm battened down for storms right now, but I'll have to look and see what might be done. The anchor locker goes almost right up to the roller furler. I'd have to look and see if there's room. There probably is.

I'm so grateful for this discussion. It's been very productive for me.
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Old 13-05-2012, 18:34   #47
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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Yes, but then I'd have to also cut a hole in the hull of my hard dinghy to attach the removable stay... ;-)

My rig already has a baby stay, but it is not designed to take any sails and adding a second forestay to my boat is just impractical and undesirable in too many ways for it to be a viable option.
That's my situation too. Among other things, I don't have a windlass, so you need good space for a person up there to pull the anchor up. I prefer a clear bow.
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Old 13-05-2012, 19:14   #48
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

On our boat it would be difficult to reach the lower grommet when the sail is furled ;-(.

b.
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Old 13-05-2012, 20:30   #49
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

I just had an idea.

What if I got a roller furling storm sail, say 60 sq ft (that's the size an ATN would be for my boat) ... It would have a wire luff. If it was too risky to take the genny down and put it on the furler, hang it from the spinnaker halyard and a d ring? It would already have a wire luff ...

Is that a completely crazy idea?
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Old 13-05-2012, 21:58   #50
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

A storm jib not supported by a stay and especially if hung from a spinny halyard (usually not low-stretch cordage) will be way too baggy to work to windward. The head will simply blow away to leeward...

Guys, this is a problem that all of us who go offshore have considered in depth. IMO there is simply no reasonable substitute for a conventional storm jib supported by some sort of very tight stay (removable is ok). The "Gale sail" which is often prescribed as a substitute doesn't have many supporters who have actually tried to use one in heavy conditions (lots of discussion previously on CF).

The OP's plan seems unlikely to produce a good sail shape, and really, in storm conditions one doesn't want to be depending on a mickey mouse setup.

YMMV, but as one who has done a lot of miles using a storm jib and triple-reefed main, I tend to be pretty conservative on this subject.

Cheers,

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Old 14-05-2012, 05:18   #51
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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I rigged a hook to a short piece of wire rope; made one end fast to a pad eye, the other (hook end) to the shackle on the top of the drum. The idea being a safety to unexpected full deployment. I hate the Hood continuous line system as well, but have found that keeping both sides of the furling line taught does wonders... I employ a double line clutch for the purpose. If I am particularly careful keeping tension on BOTH sides of the furling line, reefing seems to hold no special hazard. Havent "used" the safety yet, but have rigged it several times! The drawback of course is requiring a trip forward in heavy weather to release it.

I actually tried this at the dock the other day in 20 mph winds, something that wouldn't be crucial while being out sailing. Even with the clip all ready to go to the hardware just above the drum, I couldn't keep the sail out where I wanted it long enough to get to the bow and secure it. In addition, it would put a lot of strain on the clip, the bottom of the sail's hardware and the line securing it.

And, as both people here and an experienced sailor experienced with my boat in wind has pointed out, the weight of the fabric of my headsail isn't enough for a big blow.

I need a solution that will not require taking my headsail down. It's big and it would be very hard to do once trouble had already started, and boy it can kick up fast here.
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Old 14-05-2012, 05:22   #52
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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Think the solution is to buy a reefable furling system. Furlers for hank on sails are only good for furling. Without a foil, the middle part of the sail is always going to be a bag if you try and reef. The idea of a second halyard seems like a lot of humbug. Dropping the sail, attaching the second halyard, rehoisting the sail and furling it and then tensioning the 2nd halyard seems, well, unreal.

Keep an eye out on Ebay. You should be able to find a reefable foil based furler for around 1 1/2 boat units and probably quite a bit less.

I'm beginning to think that this would be a lot of money to spend on the wrong solution. Even if the sail were up to the wind conditions, the triangle of sail out there would be too high up. i think the more tender the boat, the more this would be an issue, and my boat is very tender.

With the engine on, all the controlled power would be in the rear, with lots of forces on the rest of the boat. My freeboard is high enough that I was able to use it to sail the boat, steering accurately, into a slip. Last week in with a peculiar anchoring problem, once the anchor rode was freed from the keel, the boat remained broadside to the wind instead of pointing into it. I would NOT want that situation in a storm, but it was a headsail problem that set it all in motion.
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Old 14-05-2012, 05:29   #53
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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I like the look of the Gale Sail. Not all that cheap though. You could convert your furler for less.

And I would have in a heartbeat except that the furler as a whole dates from 1983. that's a lot of money to put into really old equipment.
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Old 14-05-2012, 06:25   #54
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

Rakuflames

Clear some of your private message space. I have some info you might find interesting.
(Sorry for the thread hi-jack folks)
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Old 14-05-2012, 07:47   #55
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

This is a very creative idea; somebody get to a sail maker and try it in the appropriate conditions .It does seem that the forces on the reefed ,storm size jib would increase the tendency to unfurl it at the very time when it would be most catastrophic.
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Old 14-05-2012, 20:29   #56
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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Rakuflames

Clear some of your private message space. I have some info you might find interesting.
(Sorry for the thread hi-jack folks)

Sorry but I can't figure out how to do that. I tried. I'll give it another shot tomorrow.
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Old 14-05-2012, 22:36   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel

If you cannot afford a storm jib, avoid storms!

;-)
b.
So your drawing shows a dyneema stay attached at the mast head and stem head left loose most of the time. Your words say, in front of the furler.

You would tension this after furling to some point.

You can't add a stay behind the furler due the dinghy.

With these limits, why not just add a real stay in front of the furler, a real storm sail in a bag at the pulpit. Furl all the way in when you need to and hoist the storm sail. A lot less complex and other than opening the bag no need to be on a bouncing foredeck in a blow.

The disatvantage of this is you would really like the storm sail aft and closer to the mast. The advantage over what you are proposing is the sail center of effort will be a lot lower than the reefed (and what appears to be yankee cut) headsail.

The other sort of crappy issue is that on one tack the sail will fly fine. On the other tack it will lay across the furled headsail as there is no room to tack inside the forward stay.

Another, out of the box thought. What if you made a "bridle" that attached at the toerails that joined just over the top, and stradles the dinghy. Then the single inner forestay goes the the top or as up near the spreaders somewhere. This could be stowed and rigged when conditions are forecast. The advantage over the above solutions is it gets the storm sail aft. The disadvantage is that the stormsail may have to fly higher off the deck than you want.
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Old 14-05-2012, 22:38   #58
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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your plan is interesting sounding--if it works---PATENT IT!!!!

I wouldn't bother patenting it. If it is useful to anyone then I'll just look at it as a small payback for all of the knowledge and wisdom I've received from fellow sailors over the years...
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Old 14-05-2012, 22:46   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
A storm jib not supported by a stay and especially if hung from a spinny halyard (usually not low-stretch cordage) will be way too baggy to work to windward. The head will simply blow away to leeward...

Guys, this is a problem that all of us who go offshore have considered in depth. IMO there is simply no reasonable substitute for a conventional storm jib supported by some sort of very tight stay (removable is ok). The "Gale sail" which is often prescribed as a substitute doesn't have many supporters who have actually tried to use one in heavy conditions (lots of discussion previously on CF).

The OP's plan seems unlikely to produce a good sail shape, and really, in storm conditions one doesn't want to be depending on a mickey mouse setup.

YMMV, but as one who has done a lot of miles using a storm jib and triple-reefed main, I tend to be pretty conservative on this subject.

Cheers,

Jim
I am with you on this. Its not simply hanging a smaller bit of sail cloth. It is hanging the right cut cloth at the right place with the right shape to make the boat handle well.

The only other thought I had is that I have a spin topping lift at 1/2 to 5/8 mast height. Not ideal but what about replacing the cordage with some super, no stretch stuff, attaching the lift to a pad eye and then hanking on a normal storm sail. Its basically the same as an inner stay but cord instead of wire and the advantage that rigging it is simply hooking the eye and winching the topper until the tension is good.

The real disadvantage to this is probably chafe.

(edit - doh... The other disadvantage with this is if using the topper for a stay there is no halyard - Doh....)
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Old 14-05-2012, 22:50   #60
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Re: "Reefing Point" for Roller Furled Headsail?

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On our boat it would be difficult to reach the lower grommet when the sail is furled ;-(.

b.

Just get a pair of Handy Duck mooring hooks ;-)



If you take the sewn in Spectra loop approach, there'd be alot of line as a target for hooking.

Though perhaps a bit heavy having those hooks up there... maybe just lines fed on using a push/pull mooring device, e.g.

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