Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-06-2011, 08:15   #1
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,844
Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

I'm currently doing a theory course to get some paperwork and the instructor mentioned that reefing the main increased the risk of mast breakage on masthead rig yachts.

His argument was that if you reefed the main as the wind picks up and you maintain the same boat speed, then the reefed sail will be excerting the same amount of force on the mast. When the sail is not reefed, the backstay takes a lot of the force, however when the sail is reefed, the area of mast between the mainsail head and the masthead will take some of the force, bending that section of mast.

Obviously the masts are designed to handle this, but metal fatigue could still happen.

So his suggestion was to leave the main up, reef in the headsail and then when you still have too much sail area, just drop the main.

I'm just wondering what others think about this

It's something I have never thought about but it does make sense
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:20   #2
Registered User
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

In a strong blow the stress on the mast with a reef or two is evident for sure. But as you said, the rig is designed to take it. Reefing the main stabilizes the boat, lowers the CE and often results in as much or even more speed!
Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:21   #3
cat herder, extreme blacksheep

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 18,967
Images: 56
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

leave it up and knock down vs reef it and see if the bs you heard is correct?/i have yet to hear of anyone losing a mast to reefing before a blow. goood luck.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:39   #4
Registered User
 
osirissail's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

The instructor seems to be full of "bs" - the purpose of reefing the main is to reduce the load on the standing rigging to avoid failure and as mentioned by Cheechako lower the CE and stabilize the boat.
- - Reefing is not a single/size reduction in sail area, but variable. Most sails have two or three reefing points. Usually the first reduces sail area by 50% and the second by another 50% of the fist reef. A third would bring the sail area down to less than 25% of the original sail area. Beyond that you set a storm trysail.
- - If a single/first reef does not reduce the rig loads and stabilize the boat then your reef again to the second reef.
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:45   #5
Moderator Emeritus
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,663
Images: 4
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

With strong wind and a full main, the boatspeed may be the same (due to the hull speed effect), but the forces on the sail, mast, and rigging will be much stronger.

I believe you should reef headsails and mainsail as appropriate to maintain balance. If you've got running backstays, use them to control mast bend caused by the reefed main (only if you're getting flexing, otherwise don't bother). Running with no headsail and full main is a good way to lose control due to excessive weather helm.
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:50   #6
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,844
He was not saying to not use common sense, just that you should reduce sail area as if your main has no reef points.
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé https://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 08:56   #7
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,844
Paul, his comment was only in reference to masthead rigs with no running back stays.

I saw a couple of Sweden Yachts 340 that had masthead rigs and what looked like running backstays but connected to a car on the jib track. I wonder if it was for reefed mains or perhaps it was for the baby forestay.

I will see him again soon so I will bring this up with him
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé https://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:00   #8
Registered User
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,185
Images: 3
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

If you leave your mainsail up in 40 knots of wind you're going to have a lot of problems. Depending upon the wave action and geometry of the boat you very well might snap your mast when you capsize.
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:03   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cruising NC, FL, Bahamas, TCI & VIs
Boat: 1964 Pearson Ariel 'Faith' / Pearson 424, sv Emerald Tide
Posts: 1,531
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

Complete and unmitigated BS.

Where on earth did this guy get his 'certification' to teach such a thing?
s/v 'Faith' is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:10   #10
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,878
This guy is dangerous. He's taken a half baked theory and is using it to rewrite common and safe sailing practice. He can go and sail his own boat any way he likes, but he shouldn't be teaching this crap.

If it were me, I'd not only ignore this bit of advice, I'd ask for my money back. Who know what other bizarre theories the guy is peddling.

Mainsail reefing is critical to the balance of your boat. With a tiny headsail and full main, you're going to have so much weather helm that you won't be able to control the boat. Then when you drop your main fully and put out more headsail, you'll have so much lee helm you'll only be able to broad reach and you may be blown onto a lee shore.

In fact, a reefed main will stabilize the mast in a seaway and prevent pumping.

If you follow this guy's advice, you'll feel so out of control in any wind over about 20 knots that you'll just stay home if there's any risk of decent wind. The rig is designed for reefing because it is the safe and required practice. That is why the naval architect designed a reefing system. If it was a bad idea, it wouldn't be designed into every boat over 22' ever designed.
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:13   #11
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy
Paul, his comment was only in reference to masthead rigs with no running back stays.

I saw a couple of Sweden Yachts 340 that had masthead rigs and what looked like running backstays but connected to a car on the jib track. I wonder if it was for reefed mains or perhaps it was for the baby forestay.

I will see him again soon so I will bring this up with him
In almost all cases, running backstays are used to take the load from a staysail on an inner forestay (not a baby stay which is very close to the mast and doesn't have a sail on it). They are also used on fractional rigs.
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:24   #12
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,844
I should say that I am not on the course to learn to sail, just to get some paperwork.

I've always sailed with 2 sails reefing both with the idea of balance and I won't change.

I understand his point but I also see the " it's designed to sail that way" logic. I have a feeling that what he is suggesting is that it may become a metal fatigue problem over a lot of years.

Time to go to class
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé https://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:29   #13
Registered User
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,185
Images: 3
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

Go out in a storm and see which has a higher priority for you:

- reefing your main
- accelerating metal fatigue in rigging components that get replaced anyway
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:34   #14
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

I've heard people say a reefed main, high winds, and end-boom sheeting can increase the chance of the boom breaking. and the common practice is to use a removable mainsheet that can be repositioned to mid-boom if ever necessary.

I wonder if your teacher heard some version of this theory and came to his own conclusions about the mast...
__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2011, 09:44   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cruising NC, FL, Bahamas, TCI & VIs
Boat: 1964 Pearson Ariel 'Faith' / Pearson 424, sv Emerald Tide
Posts: 1,531
Re: Reefed main = greater mast breakage risk???

It is just crazy.

IF someone who had never SEEN a sail came up with such an idea, I could understand it... maybe if he thought the main halyard was taking the 'load'... and transmitting it to the mast head. The slides and the mast track transfer the load to the mast.. not the halyard (slightly... oh so slightly)... but the idea one would not reef for fear of fatiguing the mast is completely insane.

This 'instructor' is a danger to anyone who might be inclined to believe his stupidity.
s/v 'Faith' is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mast

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Greater Angles when Reefed FraidNot Seamanship & Boat Handling 20 20-05-2011 16:00
Triple Reefed Main vs Deep Second Reef nv5l Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 36 03-02-2011 17:17
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 9 20-02-2009 08:52
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 1 10-02-2009 08:06

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.