(Re-)moving lower forward shrouds

eyck · 22-10-2007, 10:55

Dear all,

I'm planning on making a boom for the jib on my mastheaded 25' double-ender. Since the lower forward shrouds are attached to chainplates that are a bit forward of the mast, removing them, or attaching them to the same chainplates as for the upper shrouds, would enable me to use a larger jib.

I've read/heard about other ppl doing this, but I wanted to ask about loads, risks, etc. As I understand it, on a mastheaded rig the function of the lower shrouds are to prevent "pumping" of the mast in heavy weather sailing. So if I remove the forward ones, or attach them to the same chainplates as the upper shrouds, I basically take away mid-mast support. Would this be OK in most sailing conditions, apart from heavy weather sailing?

I guess in the latter sailing conditions I could rig a baby stay with a pelican hook.

Any advice appreciated.

Best regards,
Mats

SkiprJohn · 22-10-2007, 11:42

Aloha Mats,
I don't know your boat but designers usually have a very good reason for their rigging designs and if it were me I don't think I would change it. How much area would you gain by moving the forward lower shrouds?
Kind Regards,
JohnL

eyck · 22-10-2007, 12:16

Hi John,

Yes, I agree. I usually never change things that are subject to loads. Don't know how much I would gain, but since the Storfidra is known for having alot of weather helm I need all the area I can get...

By the way, how are these things solved on partial rigs - 7/8 and so on? I mean, on those rigs the spreaders are usually swept backwards, so what is supporting the mid mast from forward? I see several 7/8 rigs in the marina with selftending jibs (track arrangement). Is the forestay enough to give mid mast support, seeing that it does not go all the way up?

Here's a rig pic of the Storfidra.

Best regards,
Mats

eyck · 22-10-2007, 12:22

On the other hand, looking at the pic now, I think I actually would gain less that I originally thought. Hmm. Better then to special-order a jib that is higher than the usual one.

FYI, my Storfidra has a bowsprit (not on pic), so I have gotten rid of the inner forestay and set the jib from the outer forestay on the bowsprit. Many Storfidra owners mount bowsprits, since the model has so much weather helm.

Best regards,
Mats

SkiprJohn · 22-10-2007, 14:14

Aloha Mats,
I too don't think you'll gain much by moving your forward lowers. Have any of your Storfidra friends tried to rake the mast forward a bit? If it is a deck stepped mast that might be something that could be easy to try. How does it sail with a reef in the main and a genoa up? If she still has lots of weather helm with reefed main then it might be a function of your hull shape and not the rigging.
If it sails well balanced with a reef and a genoa then maybe you'll want to recut your main and go battenless.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

eyck · 26-10-2007, 10:20

Hi John,

No, I have never heard of any Storfidra owners who have raked the mast forward, although it can be done, seeing that the mast is stepped on deck. Perhaps I'll try that.

With a reefed mainsail and a genoa (set from the bowsprit) the boat sails well. This is the reason many Storfidra owners have constructed bowsprits, which the model did not have originally. Some of owners set a furling genoa at the bowsprit. As I prefer low-tech solutions, I will test setting a selftending jib with a jib boom at the bowsprit. I may also arrange an inner forestay that can be set when needed, for a storm jib.

Thanks for your input.

Best regards,
Mats

SkiprJohn · 26-10-2007, 13:06

Aloha Mats,

Here's a couple of things you could try that are low tech. Rake the mast forward would be the first. Not too much to start with but just a bit.

You said that the boat balances with a reefed main and a genoa so that means you have too much mainsail. Can you borrow a mainsail with a shorter foot to experiment with? It can be from any kind of boat that has the same luff length. Try the borrowed mainsail in different weather conditions and see if that cures the weather helm problem.

The objective is to balance the helm when beating to weather in moderate winds. You won't hurt the performance of the boat by decreasing the area of your mainsail but will improve its performance because the rudder acts as a brake when you have to over compensate for weather helm.

Kind Regards,

JohnL

22-10-2007, 10:55	#1
eyck Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Boat: Storfidra 25 from 1968 (double-ender) Posts: 4	(Re-)moving lower forward shrouds Dear all, I'm planning on making a boom for the jib on my mastheaded 25' double-ender. Since the lower forward shrouds are attached to chainplates that are a bit forward of the mast, removing them, or attaching them to the same chainplates as for the upper shrouds, would enable me to use a larger jib. I've read/heard about other ppl doing this, but I wanted to ask about loads, risks, etc. As I understand it, on a mastheaded rig the function of the lower shrouds are to prevent "pumping" of the mast in heavy weather sailing. So if I remove the forward ones, or attach them to the same chainplates as the upper shrouds, I basically take away mid-mast support. Would this be OK in most sailing conditions, apart from heavy weather sailing? I guess in the latter sailing conditions I could rig a baby stay with a pelican hook. Any advice appreciated. Best regards, Mats

22-10-2007, 12:16	#3
eyck Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Boat: Storfidra 25 from 1968 (double-ender) Posts: 4	Hi John, Yes, I agree. I usually never change things that are subject to loads. Don't know how much I would gain, but since the Storfidra is known for having alot of weather helm I need all the area I can get... By the way, how are these things solved on partial rigs - 7/8 and so on? I mean, on those rigs the spreaders are usually swept backwards, so what is supporting the mid mast from forward? I see several 7/8 rigs in the marina with selftending jibs (track arrangement). Is the forestay enough to give mid mast support, seeing that it does not go all the way up? Here's a rig pic of the Storfidra. Best regards, Mats Attached Thumbnails Last edited by eyck; 22-10-2007 at 12:22.

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22-10-2007, 11:42	#2
SkiprJohn Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii Boat: Cascade, Cutter, 42 - "Casual" Posts: 3,753	Aloha Mats, I don't know your boat but designers usually have a very good reason for their rigging designs and if it were me I don't think I would change it. How much area would you gain by moving the forward lower shrouds? Kind Regards, JohnL

22-10-2007, 12:22	#4
eyck Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Boat: Storfidra 25 from 1968 (double-ender) Posts: 4	On the other hand, looking at the pic now, I think I actually would gain less that I originally thought. Hmm. Better then to special-order a jib that is higher than the usual one. FYI, my Storfidra has a bowsprit (not on pic), so I have gotten rid of the inner forestay and set the jib from the outer forestay on the bowsprit. Many Storfidra owners mount bowsprits, since the model has so much weather helm. Best regards, Mats

22-10-2007, 14:14	#5
SkiprJohn Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii Boat: Cascade, Cutter, 42 - "Casual" Posts: 3,753	Aloha Mats, I too don't think you'll gain much by moving your forward lowers. Have any of your Storfidra friends tried to rake the mast forward a bit? If it is a deck stepped mast that might be something that could be easy to try. How does it sail with a reef in the main and a genoa up? If she still has lots of weather helm with reefed main then it might be a function of your hull shape and not the rigging. If it sails well balanced with a reef and a genoa then maybe you'll want to recut your main and go battenless. Kind Regards, JohnL

26-10-2007, 10:20	#6
eyck Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Boat: Storfidra 25 from 1968 (double-ender) Posts: 4	Hi John, No, I have never heard of any Storfidra owners who have raked the mast forward, although it can be done, seeing that the mast is stepped on deck. Perhaps I'll try that. With a reefed mainsail and a genoa (set from the bowsprit) the boat sails well. This is the reason many Storfidra owners have constructed bowsprits, which the model did not have originally. Some of owners set a furling genoa at the bowsprit. As I prefer low-tech solutions, I will test setting a selftending jib with a jib boom at the bowsprit. I may also arrange an inner forestay that can be set when needed, for a storm jib. Thanks for your input. Best regards, Mats

26-10-2007, 13:06	#7
SkiprJohn Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii Boat: Cascade, Cutter, 42 - "Casual" Posts: 3,753	Aloha Mats, Here's a couple of things you could try that are low tech. Rake the mast forward would be the first. Not too much to start with but just a bit. You said that the boat balances with a reefed main and a genoa so that means you have too much mainsail. Can you borrow a mainsail with a shorter foot to experiment with? It can be from any kind of boat that has the same luff length. Try the borrowed mainsail in different weather conditions and see if that cures the weather helm problem. The objective is to balance the helm when beating to weather in moderate winds. You won't hurt the performance of the boat by decreasing the area of your mainsail but will improve its performance because the rudder acts as a brake when you have to over compensate for weather helm. Kind Regards, JohnL