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Old 27-09-2015, 11:19   #31
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
TWO fixed props?! No wonder it takes 25 knots of wind to make her sail.
my sentiments entirely,that will give you an extra knot at least,with the minimum of effort and expense.

Lake Engineering manufacturer stern gear and marine propellers for yachts and boats.

look at the elice radice folding props, an 18" will set you back 720 each
will pay for itself in the first 5000 miles by the amount of diesel you save.

a spinnaker pole and a genoa that you can fly goosewinged opposite your existing genoa will give the balance and speed downwind.
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Old 27-09-2015, 11:28   #32
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Twin engines say lots about what her builders expected, as far as sailing capabilities.
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Old 27-09-2015, 11:38   #33
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Hey guys and gals,

Has anyone out there re-masted a yacht before with a different mast / increased their sail plan significantly?

We have a steel schooner that is severely undercanvassed (80sqm / 15t) and I'm in the process of converting it to a 120sqm ketch, but would be interested to get any advice / info from someone who's done it before.

Give me a shout if that's you....

n

I see the photo of the custom boat with what does appear to be little sail area as shown on those modest masts.

Suggestion for the OP:

Post a photo showing the sail plan drawing from the architects plan. It should show the sail plan.

Also show us the hull out of the water, keel.

And I am curious about the boats designer. In some ways it resembles a Roberts Spray variation.
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Old 27-09-2015, 11:45   #34
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
and a square sail is not as silly an idea as it sounds!

Whoever said a squaresail was a silly idea? They've been around a lot longer than any of the boats on this forum.
You betcha! Here is a shot of Pilgrim, formerly a three-masted schooner that was re-rigged in Portugal as a brig. We just had her to Catalina, then down to the San Diego Festival of Sail for Labor Day weekend, and back up to our own Tallship Festival in Dana Point.

If one or two squares is a good idea, why not try eight?

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Old 27-09-2015, 12:05   #35
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
I see the photo of the custom boat with what does appear to be little sail area as shown on those modest masts.

Suggestion for the OP:

Post a photo showing the sail plan drawing from the architects plan. It should show the sail plan.

Also show us the hull out of the water, keel.

And I am curious about the boats designer. In some ways it resembles a Roberts Spray variation.
check out his video's

not a lot of meat in the water~5ft draft

lookslike a colvic Watson or bruce Roberts variation
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Old 27-09-2015, 12:53   #36
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
...you'll never make that boat a sailboat.
This.
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Old 27-09-2015, 14:38   #37
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

To Atoll: Thanks for the link, I had not seen that video. Now have.
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To OP:

I don't have the experience that Atoll and others have, and I defer to both Petrel's and Atoll's considerable experience, so take my comments with a splash of saltwater. I am adding my comments to simply add another's POV to the mix, and because I have spent some time looking at the Nauticat motor sailors and considering what I would do if I owned one.

In general I think Atoll has pointed out several very good points.

Looking at the video, and reading that your boat has two fixed props, it does seem to me that the first thing to do would be to change those props. As they are now, they create significant drag.

Then, looking at your boat, it seems like the next easy step would be to add canvas that your boat can already accommodate, without having to change or remove a mast.

I will post a photo to show you how a Nauticat 44 (similar in size and design) looks and how another Schooner looks with more canvas up.

Note: The Nauticat 44 is a staysail schooner, so different on the foremast sails.

I will post another photo of a similar sized schooner that shows multiple sails.

In short, I would use the masts that came with the boat, retain both masts, but add other sails when you feel you can use them (light airs).

Others have mentioned changing to a gaff rig of some kind. I will post a photo showing you a schooner with gaff rig sail plan.

By the way, I enjoyed viewing one of your videos. I will view more when time allows, and I subscribed to your YT channel to see more.

Bon Voyage!
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Old 27-09-2015, 15:04   #38
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Here's another opinion: Move the aftermast forward (can't really call it the 'main' just yet--it's too mizzen-ish just now), and put a gaff sail on it with a boom that extends over the stern. Pretty standard schooner fare. Then move the foremast a few feet forward, and also, for goodness' sake, put a gaff on it too. Now the boat will begin to resemble a schooner. Once you've worked out how much sail area you can reasonably get on main and fore, get a bowsprit long enough to fly a jib which will balance the rig. Longer bowsprit=less weather helm. Since your boat is not meant to race 'round the cans, the low-aspect-ratio gaff sails will be perfect. All this will take some designing, but there are books on that (Skene, Leather, etc.), and it's not too difficult to design a gaff rig by the seat of your pants. After all, I did it, with pretty good success.
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Old 27-09-2015, 15:35   #39
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Here's a few pics of the keel config - one taken after she sat in a mud berth during construction, the other two whilst ashore and on temporary supports. Total draft is 6ft 8", with the keel proper making up approx. 3ft 8" of that.




atoll - appreciate the link to the folding props. We're seriously looking at Flex-o-folds at the moment primarily due to the reviews given, but it never hurts to look at other options.

Steady Hand - thanks for the kind words on the vids! Will pass on to my other half who puts them together.

Unfortunately we don't have a sail plan, just blue prints for the hull layout, plumbing, rudder config, etc. Given the state I bought the boat in, it's a wonder we have even them. She was designed in '68 by Davies & Sons in Bursledon (Hamble, UK), then built around '72. BR was doing kicking off his boat design studios about the same time, so I'm not surprised there's some resemblance.

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Old 27-09-2015, 17:30   #40
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

I really wouldn't consider changing rigs, and moving them.... It isn't as simple as just moving the base, you also have to rebuild the chainplates, bulkheads, and all the running rigging. It just isn't worth it to me.

If you really want to crease performance I would first get rid of those pin head mains and go to fully battened big roach mains. That alone would increase your main sail area by about 30%.

Next, add twin reachers, one from each mast (do a google search for 'Beowulf reaching' for pictures). This will add substantially to off wind sail area.

Third, be happy with what the boat is.
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Old 28-09-2015, 07:30   #41
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Just looked at your videos, awesome work on the boat, she looks great! though I am a tad worried that a 16.7m mast at 9kg per meter might be a bit heavy, especially with the ketch rig. Its hard to say for sure, if the deck is light and she has lots of ballast maybe not. She looks like a reasonably stiff hull shape, but there is a lot of weight up high with the pilothouse and poop deck. Probably best to cut the mast down to say 14 or 15 meters if you stay with the ketch.

I think Atolls advice is very good, and if you want to see the world that's a good way to go, the extra diesel used will probably be less than the cost of the new sails and rigging. Beats having to sail back to England when you could be in the Caribbean! But if your headed back to England anyway, and the mast is cheap enough it might be worth doing.

Ideally to get the boat sailing well in light airs means getting that transom clear of the water. The best way to do that would be to extend the stern by about 4 feet or so, creating a swim platform, a easier run and a longer waterline. it would also help to extend the backstay aft for a longer boom and more sail area aft. This would have many pluses overall, but its a huge amount of work. personally I'd go sailing (or motorsailing) and make any changes later when you really know the boat, the sea and yourselves better.

Another mad idea is to extend the masts you have upwards by making steel tabernacles or posts to sit them on. You could raise them both by about 1.5 meters and get an extension, like another reef sewed onto the bottom of the sails, or transpose the main to the mizzen, and get a new roachier main. The tabernacle posts would need to be braced with hunter style deck struts or some such, or they could be sleeved around the existing masts, and tied into the keel. Or if you could find some section similar to your masts they could be sleeved.

Saying all this I quite like the stout look of the rig you have, very shippy even if its slow! A friend just got back from a pacific island run in a very underrigged motorsailer and was pleasantly surprised at how well the boat slipped along and how little fuel it used. The sailed added a lot of drive in the trades. He was quite happy with the compromise and often just ran his lee motor at a moderate load to keep him moving.

Cheers, and keep up the good work on her!
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Old 28-09-2015, 14:25   #42
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Thanks Snowpetrel! As ever, appreciate your thoughts on the matter. It certainly has been a long rebuild process to get to this point, hence our decision to stick with Calypso, rather than offload her and start again with something else. We have a pretty good idea what she'll do in winds from 5-45kts and accompanying 4m swell as well, which is another reason we're sticking with her as a long-term liveaboard

Funnily enough, we had thought about extending the masts by a couple of metres each but then did the figures on rerigging two masts plus sails, and it quite quickly put a big dent in our budget to cruise back to Aus.

I think there's definitely some mileage we can get out of this ketch idea BUT agreed, 16.7m is a much bigger foremast and something shorter (but longer than the existing rig) would be more suitable. We're off to look at something that might fit the bill this coming Friday, so expect an update later this week. If it does turn out good, we'll have it sent to Portugal... I've spent 12 long winters in England and now we're heading south to warmer weather and long-term to Aus, there's no way I'm heading back (in a boat, anyway)

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Old 29-09-2015, 02:33   #43
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Ha, you just keep doing what your doing, and you'll get back to aussie eventually. Sounds like you have things in hand. Heres a few more madcap thoughts. Staysail schooner gives you a big fisherman staysail, and a smaller roller furling Staysail between the masts that doesn't chafe on the main shrouds. a very good motorsailing rig.

Some nice pics of one here



Another schooner, this one I sailed from Tasmania to South America. very light and fast, but a effective rig for the boat.



and finally for laughs this


Anyway, a few crazy ideas, sounds like you have it in hand nicely.
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Old 29-09-2015, 03:27   #44
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

re stormpetrel's photos,the second rig is the one I would go for,but keep the main on the fwd mast,and have a loose footed staysail,assuming he has 80m2 now,the extra poled out genoa and stay sail would bring his downwind sail area up to about 110m2,which is larger than the nauticat 44 at 106m2.

but first of all I would replace my propellers with max props or folding,just this alone will make a considerable difference to performance.

I have used these guys for second hand sails before,good service and reasonably priced
http://www.exchangesails.co.uk/used-...hand-sails.htm
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Old 29-09-2015, 04:53   #45
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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but first of all I would replace my propellers with max props or folding,just this alone will make a considerable difference to performance.
2 x Flex-o-fold folding props ordered this morning; should be with us within the next couple of weeks.

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I have used these guys for second hand sails before,good service and reasonably priced
Exchange Sails! Second hand used head sails ready for despatch UK
Glad to hear you've used them as well and have had a positive experience - John's been really helpful and we've now placed an order with him for some used sails.

n
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