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Old 26-09-2015, 15:36   #16
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Re-rigging is an interesting project. I'd second the recommendations for a cutter rig. Also, particularly because you have a heavy boat with (I'm assuming) a less than huge righting moment, I'd suggest you consider a gaff rig. Gaff will give you more sail area with a lower center of effort, which is what you need. Gaff spreads a lot of sail area lengthwise on short masts.

If you go to a single mast be aware that you will need to verify your chainplates will be up to their new loads (assuming you are able to use them.

If you really want to keep costs down on building a gaff rig I'd suggest you consider using steel tubing for the mast. Because masts are designed using the modulus (stiffness) of the material, steel and aluminum are almost exactly equal in rig weight, assuming you can find the wall thicknesses required. Steel allows the mast fittings to be made from steel and welded on. This will save you a significant amount of both time and money. Welding both ends of the mast closed will eliminate internal corrosion. OWning a steel boat, you're familiar with how to handle the external.
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Old 26-09-2015, 15:41   #17
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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...I'd suggest you consider using steel tubing for the mast. Because masts are designed using the modulus (stiffness) of the material, steel and aluminum are almost exactly equal in rig weight...
I don't think so.
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Old 26-09-2015, 16:23   #18
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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You're trying to turn a motor-sailor into a sailboat by over-canvassing her. This can't end well.

You could increase your existing sail area with a few more sails. But you'll never make that boat a sailboat.
Well, we'll see. When the breeze picks up she sails as well as my old O'day 34, and that was one hell of a sailboat, so I can't see how increasing the sail area is going to be a detriment.

Of course it's never going to be an around the cans racer, but then that's not what she's designed to do.

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Old 26-09-2015, 16:25   #19
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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I went the other way and converted a ketch to a brigantine schooner. You might gleen some insight by reading my re-rig pages, at Schooner Britannia, renovation of a Brigantine Schooner.
JR
Thanks JR - I'll grab a look at your re-rig pages tomorrow...

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Old 26-09-2015, 16:27   #20
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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I don't think so.
http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm they can be much closer than you would think. The edge goes to alloy, but steel can work. If built and sized very carefully.
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Old 26-09-2015, 16:55   #21
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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So when working out my SA/D, I should only use 100% my foretriangle area? Or use only use that figure when comparing to other boats?

Currently, we're about 11.8SA/D and in anything under 15kts, we struggle to get 3kts (and subsequently end up motoring). Above 25kts tho, we'll happily hammer along at 7. If we can get a SA/D of 17 I'll be happy.

Panope - thanks for your thoughts. An option we have is for a 16.7m mast (increased from our current 11m foremast) with a 5m boom. My only concern with the sloop is balance - having a mizzen will allow us to balance the boat for lee / weather helm, whereas just running as a sloop will mean we run the risk of turning the boat into a real dog (unless we engage a naval architect to do the sums, in which case this project starts getting silly expensive).

n
I'd only use 100%. Some people use the full sail area but it distorts things enough to make comparisons meaningless. Sailboatdata uses 100%.
At any rate you cannot use the sail areas of both the staysail and genoa. As they overlap each other neither sail will work at 100% efficiency.

As far as the numbers go, it's only one metric. Sa to wetted surface is just about as important. Just not as easily worked out. As is dellingburg angle. Or a comparision of sail area to righting moment.

But you are stuck with what you have, and what you can afford.

You're capable, so you can do something to fix it. But going the yacht designer/ sparmaker route is going to set you back a year or twos cruising kitty. So I'd cobble something together from what you can find cheap and go sailing instead, if that's what you want.

That 16.7 meter section is a big stick. She would go well with that as a cutter, as long as it's not to heavy a section. Balance with the mast fwd might be an issue when sailing to windward, But it's hard to say for sure, as panopes boat shows. Generally what looks right works well enough.

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Old 26-09-2015, 17:03   #22
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

By the way, snowpetrel 1's sail area displacement ratio using 100% foretriangle was about 13. She actually sailed quite well in light airs, being that she had a fin keel, and a narrow stern with a low wetter surface area hull shape. You have the fin keel I think? But a wider stern. Is it immersed, or is the lower part of the transom underwater?

How stiff is she? Not so much in steady conditions but in gusty stuff under full sail what happens in a puff, does she wantv to fall over and round up, or just put her shoulder down a bit more and charge right along?

Snowpetrel 2 has a sa disp of 20, but the hull to go with it. She's great in the light, but a very much lighter boat, weighing the same as snowpetrel 1 but 40 foot instead of 33.

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Old 27-09-2015, 01:55   #23
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Thanks Snowpetrel for your thoughts on this. We've been using sailboatdata as a yardstick when it comes to comparing prospective new rig setups to other boats I know / have been on, so it helps to know how they're calculating their figures. Another great article I've been reading is here - Hands-On Sailor: How Sailboats Measure Up | Cruising World.

Calypso does indeed have a bulbed 3/4 fin keel (about 18mm thick steel plate, if memory serves me correctly) with approx 1ft of transom submersed on the centreline. In 25-30kts gusts crossing the Channel, she heeled a bit, dug in and off we went. There was never any crazy round ups or broaches, just a stately trucking along, which is what I'd expect of a heavier cruiser.

Using the 100% foretriangle figure (and dividing mainsail and mizzen by 1.8 to account for a light roach), we get a current SA/D of 7.5. That seems absurdly low, but then it's not taking into account our big HP sail, the 150% genoa, which we have completely unfurled almost everytime we're sailing. Using the full genoa, main & mizzen (ie. our "working" sail plan) we get a SA/D of 11, which is about what I'd expect based on our sailing performance thus far.

If we go for a ketch setup with the bigger foremast, and using the 150% genoa, main and mizzen we should see a SA/D of 17. To my eyes that doesn't look overcanvassed and should give us reasonable performance across the wind strengths.

Whatever we do, we'll keep the genoa / jib cutter arrangement as it seems to work well for us upwind, and also gives a lot of options when the breeze starts to pick up.
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Old 27-09-2015, 02:51   #24
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

I'd have thought you probably need to stick with a two-masted rig to keep the CE low enough. As others have suggested, A Gaff rigs set a lot of canvas down low, and you can always add a topsail(s) for light winds (A drifter help too).

A fisherman's staysail and/or a staysail on the aft mast could help lot.

That way you might be able to make do with your current masts....
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Old 27-09-2015, 04:39   #25
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
Thanks Snowpetrel for your thoughts on this. We've been using sailboatdata as a yardstick when it comes to comparing prospective new rig setups to other boats I know / have been on, so it helps to know how they're calculating their figures. Another great article I've been reading is here - Hands-On Sailor: How Sailboats Measure Up | Cruising World.

Calypso does indeed have a bulbed 3/4 fin keel (about 18mm thick steel plate, if memory serves me correctly) with approx 1ft of transom submersed on the centreline. In 25-30kts gusts crossing the Channel, she heeled a bit, dug in and off we went. There was never any crazy round ups or broaches, just a stately trucking along, which is what I'd expect of a heavier cruiser.

Using the 100% foretriangle figure (and dividing mainsail and mizzen by 1.8 to account for a light roach), we get a current SA/D of 7.5. That seems absurdly low, but then it's not taking into account our big HP sail, the 150% genoa, which we have completely unfurled almost everytime we're sailing. Using the full genoa, main & mizzen (ie. our "working" sail plan) we get a SA/D of 11, which is about what I'd expect based on our sailing performance thus far.

If we go for a ketch setup with the bigger foremast, and using the 150% genoa, main and mizzen we should see a SA/D of 17. To my eyes that doesn't look overcanvassed and should give us reasonable performance across the wind strengths.

Whatever we do, we'll keep the genoa / jib cutter arrangement as it seems to work well for us upwind, and also gives a lot of options when the breeze starts to pick up.
Sounds like this bigger mast might be perfect if the price is right and the section is suitable. With the immersed transom your going to need all the help you can get to get her moving well in the light stuff. Just be careful the new mast isn't too heavy!

If you can get some decent roach into the main it will also really help, but you may need to shift the windgen.

A long jibboom with a light drifter set on it would be fun, plus a mizzen staysail.

Click image for larger version

Name:	1443350059922.jpg
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ID:	110046 just some more food for thought, here's a friends boat which he converted from ketch to sloop. Yes very happy with how she performs now.


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Old 27-09-2015, 04:57   #26
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

I had a look at your videos,and having owned,and circumnavigated with a not so different conservatively rigged motor sailer thought I might point out a few salient points before you go and spend a lot of money ,time and effort,for not very much gain.

firstly,comparing your vessel to a nauticat 44 built in grp,with a much bigger rig,bigger and deeper keel,designed for sail performance by S&S,Swan yachts will only give a false impression of what yours might be capable of.

fitting a 16.7meter mast will give an air height of aproxx 18 meters,greatly increasing windage and top hamper,and undoubtedly make the boat scary,if not dangerous to sail in anything over 20 knots of wind!

after frightening yourself a few times you will end up finding you need to add an extra ton of ballast to try to get a semblance of stiffness to an already heavy boat!,thus defeating the object of increasing the sail area!

your current sail area of 80m2 is about correct for what she is,a MOTOR SAILOR!

at the most increase to a 13meter mast,and improve the sail area to about 95m2.

though if it were me I would live with what I,ve got,concentrate on becoming a better sailer,lighten the vessel as much as possible,get rid of some of the junk on the deck!

for downwind sailing ,having a second forestay with hanked or roller furled sail that can be poled out will increase your effective sail area for running down wind,having a stay sail on the mizzen will also allow you to an fly extra sail without creating massive weather helm.

the idea behind a schooner rig is the ability to fly lots of smaller sails for varying conditions .

be happy with a 5knot cruising speed (120 nm a day),or get another lighter boat .

sorry for the rant,been there done it,just go sailing find yourself a 13m mast in the carib of which there are lots from hurricane victims if you must change the rig.
go with what you have got yours will never be a greyhound ,live with it,take a few more days on passage,pratise with different sail configurations,lighten the boat.
fit folding propellers etc

and a square sail is not as silly an idea as it sounds!
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Old 27-09-2015, 08:37   #27
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

and a square sail is not as silly an idea as it sounds!

Whoever said a squaresail was a silly idea? They've been around a lot longer than any of the boats on this forum.
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Old 27-09-2015, 09:23   #28
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

Some interesting points atoll and no need to apologise for the rant. I posted on the forum to get a broad spectrum of opinions, from those folks who've done this sort of project for, and from those folks who might not have, but have sailed a variety of boats long distance.

We've not compared Calypso to a Nauticat - the discussion was about fisherman sails and that perhaps fitting one would assist our current performance. You'll know from your circumnavigation that a cruising boat needs a lot of "stuff" (diesel, water, dinghy, etc), and sometimes there just isn't enough space below decks to store it all. The sail performance hasn't decreased since we added the kayaks either, FWIW.

If a 13m mast will give us 5kts or 100nm a day, we're happy with that. Calypso isn't meant to be (and never will be) a greyhound; she's a long distance, heavy built cruiser that's seen us through some ugly weather so far and will continue to do so (just a bit faster next time)....

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Old 27-09-2015, 09:29   #29
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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Attachment 110046 just some more food for thought, here's a friends boat which he converted from ketch to sloop. Yes very happy with how she performs now.
Fascinating... with the mast so far forward, you'd expect some serious helm but if it works, it works!

From memory, the new mast section is <9kg per m, so we're talking an additional 40kg up top (of course add rigging, etc to that).

Folding props have found themselves onto our shopping list as well as the one feedback we've consistently heard this season is that owners with seemingly slow boats have had them transformed by a folding / feathering prop. Given we have two of them hanging out the back, I'm fairly confident changing Calypso's can only be beneficial.

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Old 27-09-2015, 10:11   #30
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Re: Re-masting a schooner

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...Given we have two of them hanging out the back, I'm fairly confident changing Calypso's can only be beneficial.

n
TWO fixed props?! No wonder it takes 25 knots of wind to make her sail.
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