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Old 24-09-2016, 17:00   #106
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pirate Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
I stand in awe. Sounds like another Murphy Mensa Member to me (a term coined over a post adventure, Capt. Morgan confab ); Murphy being the original school of hard knocks. Love to follow you around some time.

Ahahahahaaa.. no need to stand in awe.. I'm more lucky than good and not shy to improvise.

Ah yes. Ditto on the cotter key. Well kinda. For me it was the clevis pin on the gen furler. Oh thank you spinnaker halyard!

Just so you know: I have done - and will do - almost anything to keep from going aloft in a blow. That includes cinching off a topping lift to a shroud turnbuckle (that was on the little 36'). Truth is, I'll trap out in a hurricane, but don't like going aloft, even on the hard. Only when I have to; otherwise I've been know to go all Tom Sawyer.

Btw, we use trapeze harnesses now instead of a bosuns chair, ever since we had to lower an unconscious crewman to the deck. He was hanging in the chair by one knee and his tool lanyards after kissing the mast. I refuse to keep a bosuns chair aboard. It's a dangerous relic from an age where comely women were banned from ships, if you can imagine.
I tend to be lazy.. in my younger days I'd shinny up the mast as far as the spreaders.. or in harbour up the furled Genoa if going to the masthead.. only weigh in at 75kilos so no great stress on the gear..
Don't like bosuns chairs since one had the stitching fail on me so use a double bowline with that hard foam tubing to fashion a seat on one and the lower is to stand one footed on to look down on the masthead.. so far so good..
Do like mast steps tho.. but these days need a breather at the second spreader..
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:01   #107
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Hope your rerigging is going well Jim, look forward to seeing you you both down here again soon.
Hi Ben, thanks for the comments re trapeze harnesses. Your experience reinforces my uninformed thoughts, but I await Phillip's comments as well.

The rigging work aloft is complete (at last). Still need to do the final mast tuning, but have not had the chance as yet. Ann's second cataract surgery is on 28 Oct and as soon as she is pronounced seaworthy after that we will start southward. Do hope to be back in Tassie for Christmas, or New Years, or Valentines (just joking... don't want to miss the WBF in early Feb!).

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Old 24-09-2016, 17:31   #108
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Ha, hopefully I will also be back from another quick run down south before the Wooden Boat Festival as well! Got to get my little wooden boat ready... All the best with Ann's surgery.
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:41   #109
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pirate Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Ha, hopefully I will also be back from another quick run down south before the Wooden Boat Festival as well! Got to get my little wooden boat ready... All the best with Ann's surgery.
Snow.. If you run across Wotname say Hi for me.. last I heard he was snug in front of a log fire..
Jim.. I second the best wishes for Ann's operation..
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:56   #110
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Depends on what you buy I suppose. I got about 5 years of daily abuse and double duty on my last harness before UV degraded the stitching. I was dating a sailmaker at the time and she simply rebuilt it. Maybe describing what you need to a sailmaker is your best alternative to off-the-shelf harnesses.

The seat in my harness was actually contoured to support a sitting position. It's the only one built like that that I have seen. But I haven't had to shop for a replacement in years so I suspect that it's a crap-shoot trying to find a duplicate. Sure was comfortable though. When it comes to work, I'm all about being comfortable.

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Oohhh, THAT kinda trapeze! My fuddled brain was seeing Daring Young Man sorts of trapezes! How silly!

But, are they constructed to the sort of strength standards that are common for work aloft? It's one thing to fall from your hiked out position on a Tornado cat, quite another to fall from 20 metres aloft. And how about the balance? Seems they re designed for a nerly supine posture, and even with shoulder straps connected tot he halyard, it seems awkward... but then I've not tried it myself.

But they certainly look more comfortable than my torture truss harness! Thanks for the idea.

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Old 24-09-2016, 18:02   #111
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

By the by, all the best to you and yours. I trust that all will go well for your bride and you'll be on your way soon.
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Old 25-09-2016, 03:58   #112
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Certainly, if conditions leave one calm enough to to micturate at the lee rail all is well. However if things are bad enough to induce involuntary eliminations, perhaps one had better reef instead.
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Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
Aye lad, fer caution's sake, reef! By Pliney's word, a'mīgan the fair nereid; 'tis curses sure.
OK, IdoraKeeper,

It's confession time. I'm so embarrassed. I just made this stuff up! Worse still, I tried to make it all sound so, well, nautical! Oh! The shame of it all!

The Old English term mīgan (to urinate) is akin to micturate according to etymologists of some repute. Somewhere in the back of my mind I decided to have fun with this little-known fact. I should have known I would rue (from the Old English word hreowan, meaning "to make sorry") the hour (Henry VI, Part III, Act V, Scene 6 )...

Oh! To have trivial fun! It's a disease! I can't help myself! Take pity, please!

Pliney the Elder, the Roman naturalist, wrote of the nereids, the half-fish nymphs of Greek mythology, legend and nautical lore. Fifty in total, they were daughters of Nereus and Doris. They helped sailors on their voyages when they faced fierce storms. So I suspect you see the somewhat tenuous link to this exchange.

I know. What's next? Puns? How can I ever bear the shame? Why did I not simply prefer the King's English to a phony string of pseudo-nauticisms (is that a word?) and fictitious grammar! Where did I think I was; a sailor's forum?

Why did I not just plainly state, "Yes IdoraKeeper, you should surely exercise caution and reef the main, especially if it would keep you from impulsively and dangerously urinating from the lee shrouds. If by happenstance you should accidentally relieve yourself on an unsuspecting mermaid, it is said to bring immediate, countless and miserable misfortunes!"

There. I feel better now. I can now go back to yacht shopping and trying to work the bugs out of OpenCPN. I'm gonna be a sailor when I grow up!
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Old 25-09-2016, 08:37   #113
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
You guys ever seen a boat set up for singlehanded racing?
Ya sure...that looks impressive when a Gucchi race boat is sitting in her slip but it can be a cluster **** when sailing and everyone is standing in a cluster of lines. On a big Morgan like the OP's, it is relatively safe going forward on it's wide deck and always, always use your harness and jack-lines. Is it any safer from the cockpit when the $h!t is hitting the fan and you're trying to untangle sheets and down-hauls?
To me, the best way is to learn to read the weather for anything coming up and reef early. At night reef down and live with a few miles lost during that 10 hours.
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Old 25-09-2016, 09:02   #114
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

I feel more secure on the racing deck than on a cruising boat.

Racing layout is better trimmed to doing things in an effective way. There are no granny bars to catch the lines, there are no dorades, no open cleats, no maststeps.

There are foot rests and handholds where I need them, etc.

Another factor is that the racing boat will sail faster and is way more stable (by its shape, by its ballast ratio, by its speed). Etc.

So, overall, my personal feeling is that racing boats are easier to work on deck. Wetter too, but that's where a dry Musto overall kicks in.

Down below, I find cruising boats safer, more comfortable and more human to live in.

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Old 25-09-2016, 14:54   #115
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

https://youtu.be/B_kdKU-lWVg

I don't know Barney, 1:40 of this clip looks a tad too exciting for me, mind you on this boat reefing and unreefing needs probably two at the mast to feed the sail into the luff groove.

Nah give me nice deep bulwarks and a lumbering 6ksb any day...

BTW its interesting to see a canting keeler at speed. Around 27-28 knots the keel starts to walk the boat over, most of the heeling she does is due to this. Notice the lee helm with the canard partly raised.
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Old 25-09-2016, 19:37   #116
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
https://youtu.be/B_kdKU-lWVg

I don't know Barney, 1:40 of this clip looks a tad too exciting for me, mind you on this boat reefing and unreefing needs probably two at the mast to feed the sail into the luff groove.

Nah give me nice deep bulwarks and a lumbering 6ksb any day...

BTW its interesting to see a canting keeler at speed. Around 27-28 knots the keel starts to walk the boat over, most of the heeling she does is due to this. Notice the lee helm with the canard partly raised.
Yes. A beautiful video. This is sailing proper. You have noticed how stable the boat is. She may broach. But a cruising boat will broach too, and sooner.

There are also fine videos out there, one of a classic yacht in a storm and a couple with racers caught out. I look at them at times and think OK the racers are wet but at least they are so stable while the cruising boat just wallows.

So I am now in the cruising boat and ours wallows too. And nearly all our lines are in the cockpit. Just like on that racer.

We can learn heaps from each other and from such videos too.

PS Contrary to what some say, it is not necessary to go to the mast to reef and un-reef. It is all in system choices we make.

Cheers,
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Old 25-09-2016, 22:14   #117
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Indeed B, thats why my new ride is a old racing boat, an 8KnSB... :thumbup:

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Old 26-09-2016, 00:11   #118
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

You guys make an interesting point. If you take a racing yacht of respectable size and place it squarely in the cruising/live-aboard paradigm, performance can directly and positively affect safety. As always there are trade-offs, but after I read your posts, I could not help bu wonder...

Let's say your modern prototypical cruising yacht has a forecast six day weather window to make a projected four day hop to the next Caribbean island. You make way in ideal conditions but by the point on no return, the forecast has changed radically. Your six day window just shrank to three. It's the Caribbean and you've hit the jackpot.

Meanwhile, on the tricked out racing yacht your buddy has converted for live-aboard cruising; he has left you in his wake faster than a six year old at Chuck E Cheeze's with a fist full of tokens. He makes the same four day passage in half that time. No need to reef or furl or hank storm sails or heave to. He has outrun the weather, right? Now that is a big plus in the safety column.

So his boat is topped off and snugly nestled in some safe harbor marina visitor's slip. He's sipping an overdressed fruity rum special on karaoke night at the marina restaurant and bar with one eye on the harbor and the other eye on something else. Sure he's concerned for you, but he's also sure that you'll be fine. He'll have another, thanks...

You and yours however, have just figured out this will be a long night. Your mate tries to tune in the latest weather while keeping down those greasy cold-cuts by sheer force of will. From your vantage under the dodger, it's overfalls or 40 knots of in-your-face blow depending on which way you turn. Then you remember how shallow this water is.
Your million candlepower torch illuminates a scene that more closely resembles black coffee in a blender than a Caribbean cruise.

Worse still, you've come to the realization that heaving to will only put those breaking seas abaft an iffy companionway hatch and you start mentally ticking off all the things that could break. There is no way the autopilot can cope with this. You've got to stand this one. So you stick with the broad reach under shortened sail while taking it on the chin. Yeah, this will be a long night, but at least you're still on course.

It's about then that you recall the enticing wording on the yacht broker's brochure, his reassuring manner and his glowing recommendations, while meditating on the full import of the phrase "sea kindly". So you make a mental note to give him a call and tell him about your buddy's boat.

"Maybe these guys are onto something," he murmured aloud while absentmindedly stroking his chin. Hmm...
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Old 26-09-2016, 00:25   #119
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

I enjoy your writing Careknot, thank you for your humorous, well thought out and well written posts.

It's complex, for me the old racing boat is more about satisfaction and not needing to turn the key to get places fast. Overall I think many of the average cruisers could be better served with a good displacement powerboat rather than a yacht, and many yachts end up being used more as motorsailers for many coastal passages.

I know with me on a delivery or if pushed for time coastal I will typically motor 50-70% of the time (much as it pains me to admit it!). The wind is often either too light, or too strong (so I stay in port), or from the wrong direction so I motorsail.

This aluminium 79 two tonner I have now sails brilliantly in the meerest whif of wind and cuts to windward as painlessly as any boat I have been on. And she is just such a pleasure to sail! As long as I don't push her to hard downwind her manners are impeccable.

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Old 26-09-2016, 10:23   #120
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Hi Snowpetrel,

Sorry to take so long and thank you very much. You don't do so bad yourself. Your style is just a tad bit more direct (see what I did there?). But you seem to have keen sense of humor, perhaps a wee bit wry. I like that.

I cannot but agree with your assessment of boaters and their choice of boats. I learned to sail in Florida, the great jumping off point for tourists-turned-expats, retirees, newly minted liveaboard cruisers and power boaters. It's a place where the power in powerboat has deep psychological connotations and the weather and the choices of people can best be as described as the sometimes malicious lovechild of Mr Magoo and the spirit of whimsy. There, yachtsmen are rare indeed.

Had an acquaintance that bought an old Morgan classic on-the-cheap, he and his young paramour. They were a sweet but odd couple. Somehow they resembled a more reserved Sonny and Cher. She was the sweet one. Neither was slow of wit. David was a bit opinionated, but not in a bad way; just unique.

The engine was pickled on their choice of boat, so it had sat without offers and steeped in neglect, floating in a canal near St. Pete Beach. The boat, save for the standing rigging, was essentially bald and wearing a tattered tarp that hung low to one side like a bandanna with an eye patch. Fully in character, it sported a barnacle beaded beard below the waterline. I suspect she wouldn't have done a knot, even if the engine did work.

They spent nearly a year there, bringing it back from gross indifference between classes and work. They named it some poetic nautical pun and moved aboard sooner than they should have. But in all that time, David never even looked at the diesel. He would rather beat to weather in a narrow channel for hours than consider motoring. Like I said, he was unique.

Full sails, he would approach a moorage CBDR, to the horror of the floating RVers, gently swinging on a hook. Knowing his spot well in advance, he'd bear off to a fisherman's reef, lash the helm and stroll nonchalantly down the windward gunwale to the foredeck to drop an anchor right on cue. His yacht would neatly come about at the set of the Bruce and luff the sails. David would then leisurely douse 'em to the dismay of his audience.

When David didn't drop sail a mile away like everyone else, they were sure his halyards were fouled. When then figured out that this is how he intended to set anchor, they would grumble tedious phrases like, "Well, I never!", and that was the problem. They hadn't and he just did.

David despised an engine as cheating. His was a sailboat and he was a sailor. But he never disparaged the less stringent interpreters of the term. Instead he viewed them with compassion, as if they had just missed the point and therefore missed out on the joy of it all. He took to lashing a long oar to a cleat on the stern of his old Morgan and would maneuver his baby in harbor like a gondola. Don't know where he got it, but it was huge and he was good. Who does that?

We watched him drop his oar through the bow pulpit once and back the yacht along a gentle arc into a visitor's slip by himself, narrowly ensconced by several million dollars of floating ego-driven nauticus. He accomplished this with oar in hand and boat hook at his feet, against an ebb tide and a steady ten knot breeze across the aft port quarter. He played the wind against the tide like a stripper plays a lonely cop at a traffic stop - deftly.

Appropriately, Rocco and I watched from the shade of a grassy knoll as we waited on our prospective charters to inspect and inventory the CSY. Normally we provided everything on a charter, but some would rather do it themselves. Over crackers, cheese and Merlot (sipped from cans marked Cherry Coke), we watched David, the boat and the drama around him unfold. We howled! We clutched our aching sides as tears of laughter streamed down our faces. But it was their faces you should have seen.

Hearing the ruckus from some 30 or 40 meters away, our prospects came up on deck and joined in the fun. We all screamed our support and cheered him on as the self-titled 'harbor master' and a few indignant boat owners approached fits of apoplexy. It was, to turn a phrase, an epic display of savant seamanship, a complete disregard for marina protocols and a joy to behold. And David was right. They had all missed the point.

David might have been the best natural sailor I had ever seen and for about five years, he and his sweethearts (his girl and his yacht) were common topics of conversation in our community. Intensely aware of his surroundings, he always had a plan. David didn't normally care how long it took to get there as long as he was prepared, provisioned and going. He was happy in the here and now, especially if he was sailing. You wouldn't think it to look at him, but I suspect he came from money and would one day return to it.

In late summer, some thirty-odd years ago, David and his biggest fan took on her brother and his betrothed as partners and crew. I wish I could remember their names like I can still see their faces. They had sailed together for several months that summer all over the Sun Coast to solidify their relationship and establish a pecking order. Any casual observer could tell they were a team and David was their skipper.

The four of them hauled the boat in mid-winter at a yard in Tampa. They spent some time repainting the bottom, servicing the rigging, repairing worn ground tackle and replacing sails and the like. A friend cut and sewed the new sails, so I heard all the scuttlebutt. Throughout this time they continued to live aboard, so we only saw them rarely. The yard in Tampa seemed like a world away from Dunedin.

Meanwhile, they grew closer together and settled on a number of compromises, one of which I never saw coming. Eventually, they had the yard drop a brand new diesel in the boat under the agreement that David never had to touch it.

In early Spring, we met on the causeway for burgers, grouper sandwiches and drinks at our old hangout. Strange the details that stay with you through the years. I remember our order and I remember it as a special occasion, but I can't recall why. Then sometime in the late 80s, the four of them sailed out of Tampa Bay. We never saw them again.

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I enjoy your writing Careknot, thank you for your humorous, well thought out and well written posts.

It's complex, for me the old racing boat is more about satisfaction and not needing to turn the key to get places fast. Overall I think many of the average cruisers could be better served with a good displacement powerboat rather than a yacht, and many yachts end up being used more as motorsailers for many coastal passages.

I know with me on a delivery or if pushed for time coastal I will typically motor 50-70% of the time (much as it pains me to admit it!). The wind is often either too light, or too strong (so I stay in port), or from the wrong direction so I motorsail.

This aluminium 79 two tonner I have now sails brilliantly in the meerest whif of wind and cuts to windward as painlessly as any boat I have been on. And she is just such a pleasure to sail! As long as I don't push her to hard downwind her manners are impeccable.

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