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Old 24-09-2016, 08:44   #91
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Answers in red

Quote:
Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
Sorry R'Rod. Not trying to be a pain, but that didn't really answer my question. Perhaps if I present it differently.

Were these (generally speaking) low quality systems?

Popular production boats, typically less than 10 years old.

Were they poorly installed?

Factory installed.

Were they poorly maintained?

Typically maintained.

You mentioned jams inside the mast.

Were the sails or lines in bad shape or do you think that they were just poorly managed?

Neither. The units just failed when a non in-mast furling design wouldn't have.

What do you think caused the jam in most cases?

Inevitable when one attempts to put something as variable as a furled mainsail inside a small confined space with small opening.

What do you think was the cause of so many jams, on what is generally regarded as a proven and reliable system?
As answered above.

Regarded as proven and reliable by whom?

They are a system prone to failure.

Any kind of problem with a jiffy reefing system is easy to fix on the fly at sea, in pretty much any conditions. In-mast furling system? Not usually.

As an example, I wouldn't have a cruising boat WITHOUT foresail furling (open drum), and I wouldn't have a cruising boat WITH in-mast furling.

When I search prospective new boats on the internet, I immediately discount any as soon as I see "in-mast furling".

I think if most people knew how many failures are occurring, how frequently, and how catastrophically, in-mast furling wouldn't be so prolific.

It could be that people are buying boats too big that they just cant handle the sails any other way (or they don't want to).

Talk to any professional rigger about it. If they are honest, they will advise that in-mast furling is prone to a lot of problems.

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Old 24-09-2016, 10:05   #92
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
[B]...If you include those who stated that they "walk or crawl" the deck once an hour in all conditions...

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Must have missed that. Patently ridiculous to leave the cockpit, especially under dangerous conditions, just to do something you should have taken care of at anchor or at the dock. Or during calm conditions and during daylight hours.
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Sadly boats are rarely so co-operative as to wait.. I've had cotter pins fail to leave boom vangs bouncing around.. transom hung rudder pintel's fail which involved hanging over the stern.. shrouds pop which involved climbing the mast to the first spreader to rig a jury shroud with block and tackle.. that was when solo.. Murphey Rools..
Nowhere did I say that it was not OK to make emergency repairs.

My comment solely addressed the suggestion of "crawling the deck every hour to do inspections."
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Old 24-09-2016, 12:45   #93
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Wandering up to the lee shrouds to lean out for a pee..??
Tee hee hee. Good one.

Right into the cockpit scuppers. Just like standing in a running shower anyway. One hand for the boat. One for me.
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Old 24-09-2016, 13:38   #94
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

I see no conflict here.

Why not leave the lines you like at the mast there and lead to the cockpit (or not) the ones you want in the cockpit?

And I could agree with those who say leading jib sheets to the cockpit is stoopid and a proof that you are a coward. It is pretty clear, in some circles, that jib sheets should be manned on the foredeck. Why lead them to the cockpit? So unmanly!

Also, furling lines should never be operated from the cockpit. Why lead all that spaghetti mess aft, if one can just quickly run fore and do the whole operation there while keeping a sharp eye on that drum turning?

And now more seriously: I do not know what sort of boats some of us here are sailing, but I know in many years and miles of our sailing we have had far fewer than a dozen of emergencies that could be sorted out only by immediate and physical presence on the deck.

Why do you have so many emergencies? Are your boats under-maintained?

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Old 24-09-2016, 13:45   #95
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

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Wandering up to the lee shrouds to lean out for a pee..??
Certainly, if conditions leave one calm enough to to micturate at the lee rail all is well. However if things are bad enough to induce involuntary eliminations, perhaps one had better reef instead.
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Old 24-09-2016, 14:53   #96
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Sadly boats are rarely so co-operative as to wait.. I've had cotter pins fail to leave boom vangs bouncing around.. transom hung rudder pintel's fail which involved hanging over the stern.. shrouds pop which involved climbing the mast to the first spreader to rig a jury shroud with block and tackle.. that was when solo.. Murphey Rools..
I stand in awe. Sounds like another Murphy Mensa Member to me (a term coined over a post adventure, Capt. Morgan confab ); Murphy being the original school of hard knocks. Love to follow you around some time.

Ah yes. Ditto on the cotter key. Well kinda. For me it was the clevis pin on the gen furler. Oh thank you spinnaker halyard!

Just so you know: I have done - and will do - almost anything to keep from going aloft in a blow. That includes cinching off a topping lift to a shroud turnbuckle (that was on the little 36'). Truth is, I'll trap out in a hurricane, but don't like going aloft, even on the hard. Only when I have to; otherwise I've been know to go all Tom Sawyer.

Btw, we use trapeze harnesses now instead of a bosuns chair, ever since we had to lower an unconscious crewman to the deck. He was hanging in the chair by one knee and his tool lanyards after kissing the mast. I refuse to keep a bosuns chair aboard. It's a dangerous relic from an age where comely women were banned from ships, if you can imagine.
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Old 24-09-2016, 15:03   #97
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Thank you R'Rod,

This certainly give me food for thought. I will do as you suggest and ask around. This information runs counter to what is often published in the glossies.

Fortunately, I prefer the plastic classics where roller-furling systems are a retro-fit. What I have seen are generally more robust than what you describe. Many are not in-mast either. So I have to agree; what you describe sounds downright scary.

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Answers in red



As answered above.

Regarded as proven and reliable by whom?

They are a system prone to failure.

Any kind of problem with a jiffy reefing system is easy to fix on the fly at sea, in pretty much any conditions. In-mast furling system? Not usually.

As an example, I wouldn't have a cruising boat WITHOUT foresail furling (open drum), and I wouldn't have a cruising boat WITH in-mast furling.

When I search prospective new boats on the internet, I immediately discount any as soon as I see "in-mast furling".

I think if most people knew how many failures are occurring, how frequently, and how catastrophically, in-mast furling wouldn't be so prolific.

It could be that people are buying boats too big that they just cant handle the sails any other way (or they don't want to).

Talk to any professional rigger about it. If they are honest, they will advise that in-mast furling is prone to a lot of problems.

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Old 24-09-2016, 15:32   #98
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Aye lad, fer caution's sake, reef! By Pliney's word, a'mīgan the fair nereid; 'tis curses sure.
Quote:
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Certainly, if conditions leave one calm enough to to micturate at the lee rail all is well. However if things are bad enough to induce involuntary eliminations, perhaps one had better reef instead.
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Old 24-09-2016, 15:35   #99
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Quote:
Btw, we use trapeze harnesses now instead of a bosuns chair
G'Day Phillip, could you tell me what is a trapeze harness? I sometimes use a rock climbing harness instead of a chair (and would definitely do so if going aloft at sea), but find them way to uncomfortable for tasks that involve much time aloft.

I'd be interested in a better alternative. Having in the past couple of weeks spent a lot of time up there replacing terminals on shrouds and a VHF antenna, it is high on my priority list just now!

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Old 24-09-2016, 15:40   #100
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
Thank you R'Rod,

This certainly give me food for thought. I will do as you suggest and ask around. This information runs counter to what is often published in the glossies.

Fortunately, I prefer the plastic classics where roller-furling systems are a retro-fit. What I have seen are generally more robust than what you describe. Many are not in-mast either. So I have to agree; what you describe sounds downright scary.
Yup, how does one sell a new 60 ft Benahuntalina, to a 70 year old who can't grind the halyard to hoist the mainsail or set the reefing lines? Just put in-mast furling on it. Problem solved right?

Art of Problem Solving 101, "Man cannot introduce a solution to a problem without introducing another problem."
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Old 24-09-2016, 15:58   #101
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Hi Jim,

There are many designs. You can search for "catamaran trapeze harness" and find everything you need to know.

I chose one with a fuller seat for just that reason; comfort. I also ran a line through the shoulder straps around the halyard to help keep me upright. If it becomes tedious while you're aloft, you can simply loosen it and recline a bit. That helps tremendously with the blood flow to the lower extremities.

Spend a little time around tornado class catamaran racers. They are generally a friendly lot and will probably take you out for a spin. Try out several harnesses before you buy. You'll see what I mean.



Quote:
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G'Day Phillip, could you tell me what is a trapeze harness? I sometimes use a rock climbing harness instead of a chair (and would definitely do so if going aloft at sea), but find them way to uncomfortable for tasks that involve much time aloft.

I'd be interested in a better alternative. Having in the past couple of weeks spent a lot of time up there replacing terminals on shrouds and a VHF antenna, it is high on my priority list just now!

Jim
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Old 24-09-2016, 16:02   #102
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

Benahuntalina! Yeah, I've heard of those. Good boats...
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Yup, how does one sell a new 60 ft Benahuntalina, to a 70 year old who can't grind the halyard to hoist the mainsail or set the reefing lines? Just put in-mast furling on it. Problem solved right?

Art of Problem Solving 101, "Man cannot introduce a solution to a problem without introducing another problem."
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:25   #103
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

The whole, dont leave the cockpit thing in any "rough" weather meme is a scary recent developement, along the lines of the whole "you need xxxx bit of fancy electronic gadgetry to be safe"

The most dangerous thing I have ever seen after a couple of months at sea is arrive in port and get in a car. Hurtling along at 100km/hr meters away from trucks, cars and other vehicles doing the same the other way. I dont think anyone would say you should limit your trips in a car to only absolutely essential times, even though it is a far more dangerous thing to do.

In comparison the risks involved with a careful stroll around the deck of a sensible cruising boat by someone with half decent sea legs, a harness/lifejacket combo, lifelines and a good jackstay system in almost all conditions is well below any normal risk threshold. The boom is the biggest danger, as being on the sidedeck often puts your head up into the sweep zone. The other nasty transition time on lots of boats is getting out of the cockpit and getting around the dodger. Both these problems are almost eliminated with a preventer system for the main, and handholds/good design around the cockpit to sidedeck area.

There are times when the foredeck can be bouncy, so you run off if need be to make for an easy ride. In very nasty blows, with exceptionally high seas. I think the cockpit and deck can be dangerous, due to the risk of a capsize. In this case being in the cockpit doesn't really help you much.

Some of the best sailers I have ever had the pleasure of meeting rigged their Joshua class ketch with all in mast furling, but left all the controls at the mast, the logic being that they didnt want to get in the habit of remaining in the cockpit, they wanted to keep active and moving about the boat, regularly checking stuff. I wouldn't go so far myself, I have no real issues with running lines aft if it is well thought out. But I greatly admire the way they sailed that boat.

On my small NIS23 I have all the lines led aft, since the narrow sidedecks with no lifelines aren't ideal, and their is no room at the bow of the cat ketch anyway. The loads are so small the extra friction isnt an issue. Even then I still need to go forward to lash down the main.

But my old 26 foot folkboat type had halyards and reefing at the mast, but with nice flat sidedecks, small bulwarks, high lifelines, and very good agressive non skid I was quite safe on deck at all times when sail handling was needed. Some modern designs seem to have very poor deck layouts and shapes, ridiculously low and flimsy lifelines and poor non skid, maybe leaving the cockpit on them is foolhardy? Not so much because of the risks with being on deck itself but because of the poor basic design of the vessel.

Its not a macho stance, no more than someone going for a sunday drive to a scenic spot is macho, even though it involves needlessly flirting with extreme danger, injury and death by a violent highspeed impact. Nor is sitting on a sofa watching TV a macho thing, even though it involves needlessly flirting with deadly risks like cardiovascular disease.

I also really admire those sailers who manage to sail with disabilities (sometimes age related) that may make moving about on deck less safe for them. For these people often even shorebased staircases, and rough shore tracks can present risks that others don't notice. These are cases where an all furling rig led aft makes a lot of sense, Or even better yet a junk rig.
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:32   #104
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

[QUOTE=CareKnot;2220584]Hi Jim,

There are many designs. You can search for "catamaran trapeze harness" and find everything you need to know.

I chose one with a fuller seat for just that reason; comfort. I also ran a line through the shoulder straps around the halyard to help keep me upright. If it becomes tedious while you're aloft, you can simply loosen it and recline a bit. That helps tremendously with the blood flow to the lower extremities.

Spend a little time around tornado class catamaran racers. They are generally a friendly lot and will probably take you out for a spin. Try out several harnesses before you buy. You'll see what I mean.

[/Q

Oohhh, THAT kinda trapeze! My fuddled brain was seeing Daring Young Man sorts of trapezes! How silly!

But, are they constructed to the sort of strength standards that are common for work aloft? It's one thing to fall from your hiked out position on a Tornado cat, quite another to fall from 20 metres aloft. And how about the balance? Seems they re designed for a nerly supine posture, and even with shoulder straps connected tot he halyard, it seems awkward... but then I've not tried it myself.

But they certainly look more comfortable than my torture truss harness! Thanks for the idea.

JIm
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Old 24-09-2016, 17:42   #105
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Re: Pros and cons of leading halyard and reef lines to cockpit?

I have an old trapeze harness. Personally I wouldnt want to spend much time working aloft in it. They are optimised for a horizontal stance, not a more upright stance.

I normally use a climbing harness and a bosuns chair. Having fallen many times rock climbing on a climbing harness I am pretty happy with the security they offer, even if falling upsidedown they seem to work, though a chest harness can be added for extra security or even better a comercial full body harness. But used alone any harness is dangerous and uncomfortable due to the way they cut blood flow to the legs over time.

I sometimes rig footloops off my bosuns chair to make it more comfortable, by enabling me to get the weight of my backside and get blood back into my leggs.

Hope your rerigging is going well Jim, look forward to seeing you you both down here again soon.
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