Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-02-2016, 06:02   #91
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Safety seems to not being factored in. Tying or clipping anything to the end of the boom while underway is a no-no. Using snap shackles is a no-no as well: I thought by now everybody can make good soft shackles? Using snap shackles in a shockload environment, as well as on the end of a boom that can swing back and forth during manouvers or incidents is a recipe for disaster.
The point of snap shackles is that they can be attached or detached with one hand, leaving you one hand for holding on. Soft shackles are great, and I use them everywhere, but they require two hands. The hazards of a flapping clew (never use metal shackles there) don't exist at the boom end, so I don't agree that there is anything wrong with snap shackles there.

As to safety of clipping on something there under way - it depends on the boat. On my boat it would be safer than climbing up on the coachroof to get to the forward end of the boom to retrieve a leader. Other boats may be different.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 08:00   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Port Ludlow Wa
Boat: Makela,Ingrid38,Idora
Posts: 1,973
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
By the way, one way to impart massive loads to the preventer would be if you dip the boom in a heavy sea. But that would break any preventer, I reckon.

My solution to that has always been to just never use the mainsail in conditions where the risk of that is significant. Tie off the boom amidships.
This! Quite agree. I would rather use fore sail (s). Also looking into a stay sail that can be rigged to not blanket the sails forward...plenty of power, no dangerous boom swinging.
__________________

__________________
IdoraKeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 08:44   #93
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
Are you guys neat freaks? Is that why you won't leave it rigged and at the mast? Swinging from the end of a boom at sea seems to me a high price to pay to avoid a permament line running along the side of the boom.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Is this supposed to be helpful in any way?
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 09:37   #94
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
This! Quite agree. I would rather use fore sail (s). Also looking into a stay sail that can be rigged to not blanket the sails forward...plenty of power, no dangerous boom swinging.
The other reason to do that is to move the center of effort of the sails forward to reduce the risk of a broach.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 09:57   #95
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The point of snap shackles is that they can be attached or detached with one hand, leaving you one hand for holding on. Soft shackles are great, and I use them everywhere, but they require two hands. The hazards of a flapping clew (never use metal shackles there) don't exist at the boom end, so I don't agree that there is anything wrong with snap shackles there.

As to safety of clipping on something there under way - it depends on the boat. On my boat it would be safer than climbing up on the coachroof to get to the forward end of the boom to retrieve a leader. Other boats may be different.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

You're hard to follow I thought you wrote that you don't need the tails on the boom because you always rig these before leaving on a passage?! It was under that assumption that I made my remark and I still feel that there is not a single reason to use a metal shackle in your situation. If your pov is that you can't reach it while at anchor, then you surely must opt for the two tails on the boom. There are valid reasons for having these, which is why so many have them
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 10:49   #96
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,735
Re: Preventer Rigging?

I have grown to really like single braid line for anything where some stretch is beneficial. It coils super easy, is very strong, handles sunlight reasonably well, is easy on the hands and works on winches very well. It is also very easy to splice. Just a thought for anyone who finds double braid heavy and bulky.
__________________
exMaggieDrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 11:11   #97
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You're hard to follow I thought you wrote that you don't need the tails on the boom because you always rig these before leaving on a passage?! It was under that assumption that I made my remark and I still feel that there is not a single reason to use a metal shackle in your situation. If your pov is that you can't reach it while at anchor, then you surely must opt for the two tails on the boom. There are valid reasons for having these, which is why so many have them
No, I never said I can't reach at anchor! On the contrary, I can easily reach the end of the boom from just aft of the cockpit, from the after deck (center cockpit boat with large after deck). The afterdeck is the calmest and safest place on my boat, on deck, but for the cockpit itself. Much like the cockpit on an aft cockpit boat.

I am going to splice a Dyneema loop through the loop at the end of the boom (Selden boom with special preventer loop, like a metal handle). Then I can easily, with one hand, snap on the preventer, maybe even from the cockpit.

I have nothing against the "tails" (leaders) you talk about, and I now see very well why people use them, but I want to try this first. To use the "tails", I would have to go to the base of the mast to get them. On my boat, which is a raised salon boat with relatively high coachroof, and all furling rig (so it's not set up for easy access to the mast underway), the base of the mast is not a safe or pleasant place to be underway. This is different from your boat, and from many other boats. I would need a couple of steps and granny bars to make this a reasonable place to be while underway, something I don't feel like messing with. The afterdeck is a far better place to be doing this, on my particular boat.

Conceivably I could do BOTH. I could have a leader, or two leaders, just in case I get caught out with the boom out, and that wouldn't prevent me from using the boom end loop.

But what's the point? I have a 20 year long habit of NEVER letting the boom out, without rigging the preventer. It's never been a problem, and I don't really want to solve problems I don't have. My only problem has been tying the bowline over my head without a free hand to hold on, which is a small irritation. The middle of the afterdeck is a pretty safe place to be -- my boat has 16' beam after all, so the rails are far away -- even in fairly rough weather. But it's awkward tying that bowline overhead and leaning against the mainsheet for support, with my arms around them for safety. That's the specific problem I'm trying to solve.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 11:17   #98
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,744
Re: Preventer Rigging?

As an aside - option - there is nothing to say a soft shackle has to be short. You could just as well make one 3m long and use it to attach to your boom end loop, and close the soft shackle while even sitting (more stable than standing) on your aft deck.

But I used a bunch of trigger shackles and don't have any philosophical problem with them, just so long as you are aware of them and the potential for them to hit things (like your head).
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 11:59   #99
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Preventer Rigging?

How's this for an idea - length of stretchy light shock cord INSIDE the boom, made off at the fwd end of the boom, other end attached to a short leader with a stout stopper knot, led through something at the boom end which will catch it. When released, the leader goes up inside the boom. When you need it, pull it out with a boathook, from the safety of the cockpit. Et voila.

Or simpler: leaders are 1/2 boom length, held up against sides of the boom with velcro. Grab with boat hook when needed.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 13:49   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sailing the Caribbean
Boat: Switch 51
Posts: 1,498
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Is this supposed to be helpful in any way?
Yes, it's a bit tongue in cheek but underneath is a legitimate question. Sorry, if it offended you.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
SVNeko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 16:00   #101
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Safety seems to not being factored in. Tying or clipping anything to the end of the boom while underway is a no-no. Using snap shackles is a no-no as well: I thought by now everybody can make good soft shackles? Using snap shackles in a shockload environment, as well as on the end of a boom that can swing back and forth during manouvers or incidents is a recipe for disaster.
I'll concur with you on the point about avoiding tying things to the boom's end when underway. Well, on lightly crewed, & or non-jock comprised crews.
But I'm more than a bit befuddled about the snap shackles thing. Where's the safety issue with them, other than the fact that it's wise to use a fid to release them when they're loaded up?

You mention not using them in shock load type environments, however, they've worked on spinnaker sheets & guys, quite well, for over half a century. And that's definitely a shock load environment, if ever there was one.
Ever been around when the collapsed kite on a Maxi refills?

Also, if I'm reading you right, you're saying that attaching snap shackles to the boom is a bad idea. Why is that exactly? As they have a stellar track record for being attached there, & to other spars/spar fittings, in my experience.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 16:22   #102
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
How's this for an idea - length of stretchy light shock cord INSIDE the boom, made off at the fwd end of the boom, other end attached to a short leader with a stout stopper knot, led through something at the boom end which will catch it. When released, the leader goes up inside the boom. When you need it, pull it out with a boathook, from the safety of the cockpit. Et voila.

Or simpler: leaders are 1/2 boom length, held up against sides of the boom with velcro. Grab with boat hook when needed.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Make your Leaders so that they're roughly half of the length of the boom, & so that their tails hang overtop of the cockpit, within easy reach when they're not in use. With their attachment points to the boom, being at the boom's aft end.

Then, inside of the boom, affix a length of shock cord for each Leader, just aft of the gooseneck. And from there, run it back to the boom's mid-point. Where it exits on the Port & Starboard sides. And the bungee/shock cords, are connected to the Leader lines there.

Thus, when a Leader line is in use, the bungee gives it the freedom to move away from the boom's side, & to be connected to the other half of the Preventer, on that side of the boat.
And when a Leader isn't in use, the bungee will pull it up against the boom's side. With the tail of the Leader hanging only low enough for easy reach while standing in the cockpit/on the cockpit's seats. But not hanging down low enough so that it could strike folks in the head.

The only caveat to this, is that to get the requisite stretch out of the bungee, & have it maintain a reasonable lifespan, you may need a longer run/length of bungees.
For instance: Run a length of it inside of the boom, from a fixed point at the boom's aft end, then through a small block near the gooseneck (while still inside of the boom). And then back to the exit holes in the boom's sides, where it then attaches to the Leaders.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 16:52   #103
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Make your Leaders so that they're roughly half of the length of the boom, & so that their tails hang overtop of the cockpit, within easy reach when they're not in use. With their attachment points to the boom, being at the boom's aft end.

Then, inside of the boom, affix a length of shock cord for each Leader, just aft of the gooseneck. And from there, run it back to the boom's mid-point. Where it exits on the Port & Starboard sides. And the bungee/shock cords, are connected to the Leader lines there.

Thus, when a Leader line is in use, the bungee gives it the freedom to move away from the boom's side, & to be connected to the other half of the Preventer, on that side of the boat.
And when a Leader isn't in use, the bungee will pull it up against the boom's side. With the tail of the Leader hanging only low enough for easy reach while standing in the cockpit/on the cockpit's seats. But not hanging down low enough so that it could strike folks in the head.

The only caveat to this, is that to get the requisite stretch out of the bungee, & have it maintain a reasonable lifespan, you may need a longer run/length of bungees.
For instance: Run a length of it inside of the boom, from a fixed point at the boom's aft end, then through a small block near the gooseneck (while still inside of the boom). And then back to the exit holes in the boom's sides, where it then attaches to the Leaders.
Very interesting! Easier to rig and probably easier to reach, than my idea.

Did you just think of this, or have you seen it done?

Won't the shock cord chafe on the exit holes?

Shock cord would need to stretch half the boom length x 1.4 = 4.2 meters. In your scheme the shock cord is 9 meters long, so this is no problem whatsoever.


Very cool. I'll have a good think about that one. May be the way to go on my boat
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 17:07   #104
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,744
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
How's this for an idea - length of stretchy light shock cord INSIDE the boom, made off at the fwd end of the boom, other end attached to a short leader with a stout stopper knot, led through something at the boom end which will catch it. When released, the leader goes up inside the boom. When you need it, pull it out with a boathook, from the safety of the cockpit. Et voila.

Or simpler: leaders are 1/2 boom length, held up against sides of the boom with velcro. Grab with boat hook when needed. I would like that better, but more work to implement.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Mmm . . . Would not work well with regular slab reefing, because the reefed sail cloth would cover the leaders and make them inaccessible to a boat hook.

But for your furling main . . . . Might work.

I am honestly not a big fan of Velcro or of shock cord. Both degrade over time, pretty quickly. But they are cheap and easy to replace.

Using your "retracting" idea, what about using a messenger line (out the front end of the boom and down to the side deck or back to cockpit), rather than shock cord, to retract the leader?
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 18:40   #105
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Preventer Rigging?

Why the preventer at the end of the boom and not a bit more towards the middle where the angle will be better?

I use a very simple set up similar to the one you described at the opening post but I have the luck of having cleats with an interior space that allows a line to be passed there, so no problems regarding snapping.

I don't use the winches for the preventer. The line passes from the boom (just a bit aft the spraywood-I have a big boom) to the middle cleat to the back cleat. I use also the back cleat, with more or less turns around to jibe the boat alone when the wind is strong. For that I have to lower the sprayhood, that is normally down anyway when I sail upwind, anyway it takes 1m to put it down (or up).

But I have a mast with spreaders angled aft and for not ruining the mainsail I limit the angle of the mainsail. With another type of rig that allows a bigger angle on the mainsail I doubt my system works due to the life lines on the way of the preventer.

I have the lines permanently rigged and they are also useful when there is very light winds but big waves or choppy seas, acting as stabilizer and not allowing the boom to move around with the boat's movements.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rigging

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boom Preventer landonshaw Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 107 07-05-2014 21:20
Rigging a Preventer LittleBubba Seamanship & Boat Handling 1 11-04-2014 19:13
Rigging Preventer smurphny Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 5 11-03-2011 07:39
Preventer - C-Cleat Size and Load Rating FraidNot Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 18 15-04-2010 18:35
Advise for Preventer Line Size Firehoser75 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 27 18-02-2009 17:37



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.