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Old 08-06-2016, 12:38   #1
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Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

I have been carrying a massive carbon spin pole off a TP52 for thousands of miles, not able to use it because I haven't been able to get a track car sorted for it due to its massive jaws.

Meanwhile I have been experimenting with using the boom to basically barber haul the clew outboard (rather than running the sheet through the boom end as some do).

My lovely new preventers --10mm racing dyneema with high strength Wichard shackles spliced to the ends -- run to a low friction eye strop cow hitched to my new rail pad-eyes -- have made getting the boom fixed way outboard much faster and easier than it used to be.

And we have been using the other preventer as a barber hauler.


It works remarkably well, although I'm still trying to figure out how to avoid interference between the sheet and the lifelines with the boom right out. It greatly increases the area of the yankee jib presented to the wind, and I have not much craved having the mainsail winged out on the other side. It also keeps the sail from collapsing and I can even sail a bit by the lee with it now.


I wonder if I have wasted time and money on this pole which I haven't even been able to use? I note that racing boats increasingly don't carry poles at all, nor symmetrical chutes, preferring to broad reach and gybe with Code 0's or assy chutes.


Maybe we should be doing the same? Maybe the pole is obsolete? One use for it I seem to have already covered without it. Now the only thing I can't do is sail wing and wing with the headsail poled out. Maybe I shouldn't care?
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Old 08-06-2016, 13:00   #2
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

The ideal headsail sheeting point is often well outboard the rail. I like your idea, it will work well and is simple.

I like the level of control available with a jib poled out wing and wing. Perhaps I am old fashioned here?
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Old 08-06-2016, 13:17   #3
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

The newer designed fat ass boats will plane in moderate winds. Much faster for them to sail on a reach and gybe downwind rather than DDW as the additional speed makes up for the longer distance sailed. Same goes for multi-hulls.

Don't believe you have one of those planing hulls so running DDW with headsail poled out will still be your fastest way to get from point to point when the winds are far aft. Know the Forespar pin socket pole end and cars are expensive but would go that route so you can use the pole. Small money when you look at the overall cost of your boat.

You can signicicantly increase the reaching angle of a headsail in conjunction with the mainsail by sheeting it to the main boom. On our old boat, sheeting the reacher drifter to the boom added a full knot to boat speed and allowed us to run off quite a bit further without the sail collapsing continuously. Used a snatch block attached to padeyes on the boom. Headsail has to be high clewed like a reacher/drifter to set properly attached to the boom.
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Old 08-06-2016, 13:24   #4
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
The ideal headsail sheeting point is often well outboard the rail. I like your idea, it will work well and is simple.

I like the level of control available with a jib poled out wing and wing. Perhaps I am old fashioned here?
I'd be interested to hear from others who have tried this.

One thing I was not completely happy with was getting the right leech tension -- because of the angle of the sheet. That meant that hardening the sheet brought the clew more inboard, than down.
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Old 08-06-2016, 13:30   #5
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
The newer designed fat ass boats will plane in moderate winds. Much faster for them to sail on a reach and gybe downwind rather than DDW as the additional speed makes up for the longer distance sailed. Same goes for multi-hulls.

Don't believe you have one of those planing hulls so running DDW with headsail poled out will still be your fastest way to get from point to point when the winds are far aft. Know the Forespar pin socket pole end and cars are expensive but would go that route so you can use the pole. Small money when you look at the overall cost of your boat.

You can signicicantly increase the reaching angle of a headsail in conjunction with the mainsail by sheeting it to the main boom. On our old boat, sheeting the reacher drifter to the boom added a full knot to boat speed and allowed us to run off quite a bit further without the sail collapsing continuously. Used a snatch block attached to padeyes on the boom. Headsail has to be high clewed like a reacher/drifter to set properly attached to the boom.
Thanks; very useful!


Like you, I got a whole knot or even more from using the boom for barber hauling the yankee clew. Amazing effect.


Concerning clew location -- yes! The high clewed yankee jib is far easier to trim on different points of sail, especially off the wind. And easier to tack. It's so much better -- I'll never have a genoa again.
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Old 08-06-2016, 13:40   #6
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

Not that it matters to you, but racing rules don't allow it. The other issue is that typically the jib sheet needs to be lower than the boom allows and to far outboard to be controlled by a deck mounted barberhaul.

Fundamentally if the lead is in the right place I don't think it matters much how it gets there. Just so long as it is in the right place.

I don't know your boat, but my guess is that a symetric spinnaker is going to be faster downwind than an asym, because I don't think you are fast enough to pull the apparent wind forward enough. The trade off of course is that a big symetric requires a lot of man power to set and jibe.

But I am not sure you wasted money anyway. You could probably repurpose the pole you have into a sprint pole for an asymmetric easily enough. Refit poles like this are becoming pretty common. The major question is if the pole you have is stiff enough to handle the loads (I am betting yes), and how to mount it (Selden has a great retrofit asym pole system you could crib from).

Edit to add: I despise sailing wing and wing, I think it is dangerous, and makes the boat very hard to control. Leading to far to many crash jibes. I simply will not do it. So I discount the suggestions above, not because it won't work, but because I find it unacceptably dangerous.

Adding a deep runner, with the spinnaker pole would force you to sail higher than wing-on-wing but at higher speeds (maybe not high enough to make up the extra distance). But allow you to be far safer.
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Old 08-06-2016, 14:11   #7
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

Dockhead, can you post photo or reference to the exact fitting you are seeking. Our yard here in Bermuda has a graveyard of broken rigs, with some unusual track and car fittings. I'm in the UK regularly, and might be able to find a fitting for you, at no cost.
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Old 08-06-2016, 14:24   #8
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

I am not sure what you want to achieve.

If you are talking about poling out a fore sail while running, then it takes an extra long pole to do this well, in normal ocean going conditions. Plain spinnaker pole is OK only for staysails, only on some boats (which have their stay relatively close to the mast). Otherwise, for genoa-styled sails, one wants a 1.4142 times J as a minimum. This implies carrying an extra pole or one of the telescopic toys.

Or are you rather poling the fore sail out for beam reaching?

PS If I had an extra long carbon pole onboard, I would keep it, if you want to clock many running sea miles. I am just about to chop off our spin pole now and extend it with a wooden pole for our next trip to the West Indies.

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Old 08-06-2016, 14:40   #9
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

Derek and I on our twin Oyster 53s are way ahead of you. But generally, we just fly our spinnaker using our Italian Bamar top down furler.

Mrs. Mac and I have never touched our spinnaker pole which came with the boat, after hearing about an Oyster 56 owner who got his skull bashed in using his.

Ken

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Old 08-06-2016, 14:44   #10
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I am not sure what you want to achieve.

If you are talking about poling out a fore sail while running, then it takes an extra long pole to do this well, in normal ocean going conditions. Plain spinnaker pole is OK only for staysails, only on some boats (which have their stay relatively close to the mast). Otherwise, for genoa-styled sails, one wants a 1.4142 times J as a minimum. This implies carrying an extra pole or one of the telescopic toys.

Or are you rather poling the fore sail out for beam reaching?

PS If I had an extra long carbon pole onboard, I would keep it, if you want to clock many running sea miles. I am just about to chop off our spin pole now and extend it with a wooden pole for our next trip to the West Indies.

b.
My pole is almost 10 meters long, or more than 30 feet. It's made of carbon and I can lift it with one hand, but it is longer and fatter than the mast of my first sailboat.

"J" of my boat is a bit over 6 meters, or about 22 feet. So this pole is about 1.5 x J. It's a hell of a thing to store it; can't do it up the mast. I have it on the sidedeck hanging over the port bow.

For beam reaching, I think I could barber haul the clew outboard using this same setup.

The main question is running. And if running itself is passe -- then maybe I don't even need the pole.
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Old 08-06-2016, 14:47   #11
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Derek and I on our Oyster 53s are way ahead of you. But generally, we just fly our spinnaker using our Italian Bamar top down furler.

We've never touched our spinnaker pole which came with the boat, after hearing about an Oyster 56 owner who got his skull bashed in using his.

Ken

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You're using a symmetrical spinnaker, with the boom????

Such an idea never occurred to me in my wildest dreams, until reading your post just now. Wow.

You fly a symmetrical spinnaker on a boat that size -- double handed? Ken, my hat is off to you, and a low bow. I would never have dreamed of daring to try that on my boat.
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Old 08-06-2016, 15:12   #12
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

Just the two of us.

We haven't tried poling out the spinnaker with the boom yet, but the idea did cross our minds. I think Derek simply used a snatch block on the end of his boom tied on with a rope loop.

It's easy to deploy and retreive the spinnaker using the Bamar furler.
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Old 08-06-2016, 15:16   #13
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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Just the two of us.
But that's an assy, isn't it?
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Old 08-06-2016, 15:21   #14
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

Got to say we loved our pole, loved sailing wing and wing - fast and easy mode. Not just a light air thing - in heavy breeze also - really nicely balanced.

Sometimes our "wing and wing" was two jibs and not the main - like working jib poked to windward and code zero to leeward. Just pulled the boat downwind, both sails easy to set and adjust, no chafe at all.

Probably our favorite passage making rig.

Get a machine shop to make you up some fitting for the pole - they are not complicated, or find a tp52 one.
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Old 08-06-2016, 15:21   #15
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Re: Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

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But that's an assy, isn't it?
Yes it is.
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