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Old 12-07-2018, 16:32   #1
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Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Hi all. I'm re-laying-out my clutches to the coachroof. I want to try to get this right as much as possible, so I'm looking for criticism of my ideas. At the moment the lines are mixed up all over the place and not logical.

I currently have four clutches on each side (actually a triple plus a single). I've bought a new five-way clutch. The plan is to have a five-way on one side and the two three-ways on the other. There is (just) enough room for these, I think. I could then use the spare singles perhaps, out of line.

The left-hand winch is electric, right-hand manual.

Also, the new clutches are likely to be better at gripping the dyneema halyards. The older ones are fine with poly braid but a bit iffy with new dyneema under load.

I have ten lines that could need winching:
On the left I'm thinking three halyards (main, jib, spinnaker) and vang and outhaul
On the right I would then be left with Reef 1, 2, and two lines for 3 (which isn't single-line), plus the topping lift.
I then have two further lines (preventer and mainsheet) which come back here but are almost always hand operated and so don't need a fair lead back to the winch.

Naturally some of the leads will be better into the winch than others (the ones to the right of each group, really). I can loop the right-hand lines around the winch and over to the electric winch if I'm feeling really lazy, but if I get the main halyard properly marked I should be able to release it the right amount, haul in the reefing lines fully, then squeak a little back on the main halyard to finish off.

I'm thinking that the main halyard and reefing lines should be on opposite sides, as these are the two that are usually used together. Also, vang and topping lift as these are interrelated too.

So on the left I have (left-to-right):
Jib halyard, Spin halyard, Outhaul, Vang, Main halyard (most often used)
On the right I have (left-to-right):
Mainsheet (easy to access without winch), Reef 1, Reef 2, Reef 3 tack, Reef 3 clew, topping lift.

Then somewhere I'll find a completely separate place to put a single clutch for the preventer, which is a hand-only thing.

Is there something I'm missing? I'm likely to have the pole up/down at the mast I think. It might be too much to bring that back here. Twings and sheet car controls and furlers will go further back somehow...
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Old 14-07-2018, 00:52   #2
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

I can’t believe I’ve got this right. What layouts do you prefer for clutch lines?

(Shameless bump)
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Old 14-07-2018, 04:00   #3
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

What matters most, I guess, is that you have a pattern that you can easily work with. When needing to redirect a line from a clutch bank to a distant winch, people often use a ball-bearing fairlead--just a bare sheave, mounted like a cheek block would be. I believe Harken makes them; very useful. As far as newer clutches holding Dyneema better, don't hold your breath: for high loads, clutches (which are prone to slip) are sometimes replaced with jammers, and when those slip, they put in expensive ceramic jaws that really burn up a technora cover when they slip.
Ronstan makes the best solution IMO: soft clutches, where the halyard passes through a sleeve of material woven like a line cover. Even these have to be used with care, but are the easiest on the expensive lines.
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Old 14-07-2018, 04:03   #4
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

OK, you asked...!


Photos help. You did not say what type of boat. Thus, I could be all wrong.



I assume there are two more winches with genoa or spin sheets on them. I also assume you never fly a jib under the chute.



I don't understand why the mainsheet doesn't need a jammer if it uses the same winch. You don't want to let it fly while you are reefing, for example.


The preventer should probably be more than hand-tight in some conditions, particularly if not squared off.


Some of those other lines will need jammers. A furler line should have access to a winch, even though not always used.
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Old 14-07-2018, 16:37   #5
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Coupla comments:
On my boat the stoppers will not hold the main and jib halyards under full tension so they must be on opposite winches so they can be left in the self-tailers after hoisting.
I don't like the vang in a stopper, it is too hard to release in an emergency. The same goes for the preventer. If the vang has a reasonable purchase (at least 6:1) Then I suggest a heavy duty cam cleat with fairlead.
I suggest that the most heavily loaded lines (jib and main halyards) have the most direct lead to the winch drum, otherwise there is a lot of side load on the stoppers while hoisting.
An item I have found useful is a horizontal turning sheave between the clutch bank on each side and its winch. This would allow any line to be lead to the opposite side winch in case of a foul or broken winch. Antal makes them but I think there are other suppliers.
Since you are replacing existing hardware I assume the hardware mounting area is well reinforced. I suggest you patch and fill existing holes and located the new mounting holes a half inch or so away from the old locations.
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Old 14-07-2018, 20:31   #6
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes, this is just coachroof stuff, so jib and spinnaker sheets and furling gear is all further back in the cockpit. They can all be led back to the electric winch if required. Similarly, I can in an emergency lead from one side to the other in case of winch failure. I put the jib halyard over to the side as it's rarely used (being furling), and it can be led to the sheet winch anyway where it is.

I'm interested in hearing why you would need a preventer more than hand-tight. It's going from the end of the boom to the bow and back, with something a bit stretchy. Do you really winch in your preventer? Surely if you really needed it that tight you could tighten it up and then pull the mainsheet in a little for the last inch.

You also say "I assume you never fly a jib under the chute". No, not usually, although my chute is going on a top furler beyond the bow, so it shouldn't affect the jib that much. Why would my clutch layout affect the flying of a jib under the chute?

My clutches are Rutgerson, which have held up fine with dyneema halyards up to now. I'm not sure what you mean by the difference between clutches and jammers -- isn't that just a terminology thing?
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Old 14-07-2018, 20:36   #7
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderhoof View Post
I don't like the vang in a stopper, it is too hard to release in an emergency. The same goes for the preventer. If the vang has a reasonable purchase (at least 6:1) Then I suggest a heavy duty cam cleat with fairlead.

Since you are replacing existing hardware I assume the hardware mounting area is well reinforced. I suggest you patch and fill existing holes and located the new mounting holes a half inch or so away from the old locations.
I will look. Because of the make, I believe that I will actually be able to use the exact same holes that are already present (or perhaps have to make a couple of additional ones on one side).

It surprises me that you suggest the vang shouldn't be in a stopper. When would it need to be released in an emergency? It's a solid vang, so usually only needs as much tension as needed to flatten the main to taste. In significant wind, I can't imagine wanting to let it go as that would power up the main further. The purchase is 8:1 I think (4:1 on the tackle plus 2:1 inside the vang), but there's not a hope that I can bring it down without a winch.
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Old 15-07-2018, 03:27   #8
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes, this is just coachroof stuff, so jib and spinnaker sheets and furling gear is all further back in the cockpit. They can all be led back to the electric winch if required. Similarly, I can in an emergency lead from one side to the other in case of winch failure. I put the jib halyard over to the side as it's rarely used (being furling), and it can be led to the sheet winch anyway where it is.

I'm interested in hearing why you would need a preventer more than hand-tight. It's going from the end of the boom to the bow and back, with something a bit stretchy. Do you really winch in your preventer? Surely if you really needed it that tight you could tighten it up and then pull the mainsheet in a little for the last inch.

You also say "I assume you never fly a jib under the chute". No, not usually, although my chute is going on a top furler beyond the bow, so it shouldn't affect the jib that much. Why would my clutch layout affect the flying of a jib under the chute?

My clutches are Rutgerson, which have held up fine with dyneema halyards up to now. I'm not sure what you mean by the difference between clutches and jammers -- isn't that just a terminology thing?
Clutches hold the line by essentially pinching it, usually with a bunch of little plates that the line passes through. Jammers use a wedge that, well, jams against the line. The latter has more surface area of contact on the line, and if equipped with a ceramic face, can exert formidable friction as well as compression.
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Old 15-07-2018, 05:34   #9
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by the difference between clutches and jammers -- isn't that just a terminology thing?

According to Spinlock:
https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en-us/hardware/hardware-faqs

Clutches allow the line to be released by opening the handle and the handle can be opened under load. Spinlock recommend taking the load safely on a winch, even when using a clutch. With a jammer the load will always end [sic] to be taken safely on a winch before the jammer handles can be opened and rope released.


I assume that "end" is a typo for "need".
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Old 15-07-2018, 07:37   #10
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes, this is just coachroof stuff, so jib and spinnaker sheets and furling gear is all further back in the cockpit. They can all be led back to the electric winch if required. Similarly, I can in an emergency lead from one side to the other in case of winch failure. I put the jib halyard over to the side as it's rarely used (being furling), and it can be led to the sheet winch anyway where it is.

I'm interested in hearing why you would need a preventer more than hand-tight. It's going from the end of the boom to the bow and back, with something a bit stretchy. Do you really winch in your preventer? Surely if you really needed it that tight you could tighten it up and then pull the mainsheet in a little for the last inch.

You also say "I assume you never fly a jib under the chute". No, not usually, although my chute is going on a top furler beyond the bow, so it shouldn't affect the jib that much. Why would my clutch layout affect the flying of a jib under the chute?

My clutches are Rutgerson, which have held up fine with dyneema halyards up to now. I'm not sure what you mean by the difference between clutches and jammers -- isn't that just a terminology thing?

If the boom is not eased hard out and the preventer runs from the boom to the bow and back to the cockpit, only a few percent stretch is required to allow the boom to cross. It's simple geometry that you can check with a ruller. The strain on the bow turning block is also huge; a failure on a Clipper RTW boat caused a fatality.



(From Practical Sailor article, July 2017)https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...r_12237-1.html



Jib under chute. Hard to do without either another stopper or another winch. The main is on one winch and the chute is on the other. Might also be difficult to make some adjustments with the chute up (I may also not understand the set-up, so my apologies in advance).
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Old 15-07-2018, 10:21   #11
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Re: Please help me with clutch layout suggestions

Not sure why OP cannot be troubled to provide photos.

The mainsheet requires its own winch.
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