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Old 21-05-2012, 12:06   #16
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

My thoughts concern how hard is a wrap to un-wrap. At the top, a big pain. at the bottom, not so much.

I'd be much more interested in making sure that the top doesn't wrap than the bottom..
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:11   #17
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

I've done this at the bottom on 3 boats, all with Profurl furling. No issues with coming out of the groove even once. If you are concerned just put a shackle/strop/etc around it to keep the pendant close....
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Old 22-05-2012, 01:02   #18
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
My thoughts concern how hard is a wrap to un-wrap. At the top, a big pain. at the bottom, not so much.

I'd be much more interested in making sure that the top doesn't wrap than the bottom..
It's not just getting it unwrapped, it's the possibility of ruining the forestay as well.

Picture of a forestay unlayed and damaged by halyard wrap in this article:
Beat the Wrap | Sail Magazine
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Old 22-05-2012, 01:36   #19
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Cal40John and others above have the correct answer. Anywhere but at the head is a bad idea for the reasons mentioned. I would permanently attach the pendant to the sail's head so as to never forget to use it. Brummel spliced spectra is nice for this application. Position the bearing all he way at the top. The tack must be on the drum for any serious sailing.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:24   #20
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

Since sails are your engine and short hoist headsails hobble performance, I'd advocate for a proper sail. Working sails should be properly sized and built for the boat. Infrequently used sails are the best candidates for when someone wants to try and save some money. For instance, a San Francisco Bay sailor who wants a large genoa for the 3 or 4 times he goes out sailing in the winter months might find happiness with a used sail.

Used sails are often false economy. Here's why:

1. Life cycle cost. Often the sail is well used up. Divide cost of the sail by seasons of expected use to determine cost per season. I've seen people buy a "sail to get by with" that costs 3-5 times as much as a new sail when life cycle costing is used to analyze true cost.

2. Inappropriate material or construction - Often we see a cruiser with a big heavy boat buying a sail from a smaller boat with a much higher SA/D. That #1 or #2 genoa from a race boat will be significantly under-specced for a cruising and likely stretch or fail in short order.

3. Compromises like having a short hoist headsail as in this thread. The only headsails that should not be full hoist are heavy air sails. A shorter sail produces far less power than a sail with a full hoist. That means getting bogged down by chop. Modern sail design calls for keeping the hoist fairly full and reducing LP (luff perpendicular) for higher wind ranges as reducing LP is how we limit heeling moment. We don't start shortening the luff appreciably until we get into the heavy air sails like a #4.

4. Retrofit costs. I've seen on many occasions a customer spend as much on a used sail as they would have on a perfectly fitted new sail. If modifications to the sail are required, it can get expensive and performance impaired. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that it's easy to lop a foot off the luff a sail. If it's a furling headsail, luff tape will cost $2-3 / foot to replace. Suncovers will cost $7-9 a foot to properly replace. Mainsail luff slides will typically run $5-$10 each to replace.

5. Sheeting angles. When we design a headsail, part of the process is determining sheeting angles. It's a bit of a balancing between LP (overlap ratio), clew height, visibility, and a few other considerations. Race boats are usually blessed with plenty of track and sheeting options. Not so with cruising boats. When people buy used genoas, they often discover they need to install new fairlead track in order for the sail to sheet properly. If that work gets done by a boatyard, that used genoa won't be the bargain you hoped for. Sometimes a furling genoa will sheet but as soon as you reef you run out of track.

If you really want to know if a headsail will fit, you can mock it up with tape measures. Or hire a sailmaker to measure your rig and plug the proposed measurements into his or her design software. Then you can get a pretty good feel for how the sails will sheet. The design software allows the user to specify a percentage of the luff to sheet to so I can pick a point like 60% up and see if the sheet will hit the track or not. The point we pick varies according to the aspect ratio of the sail.

6. No warranty or support. We've seen people buy a sail on ebay only to find out it won't work. Most of the time people overpay on sites like ebay due to the herd/auction mentality. I've seen sails sell for 3 or 4 times what they should. In some cases I've seen a used sail go for as much as a brand new one because someone didn't bother researching before they bid.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:42   #21
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david samuelson View Post
What make is the furler? I know that Profurl have a "wrap stop" which takes away the need for a halyard restrainer and is designed for a halyard coming at no/very little angle.
If you put the tack up, it is usually a good idea to put a line around the foil at the tack to stop the luff coming free.
Good luck

We have a ProFurl LCI32. No need for a halyard restrainer, agreed. ProFurl is unique in that way. We put the pennant at the tack. In order to avoid having another line through the tack around the foil, I have inserted the luff tape into the foil below the feeder slot. It's a little tricky to do and requires a clean luff tape at the tack (trim and it works just fine). This way the luff tape is supported the entire length of the sail in the foil. My rigger/sailmaker said this wasn't necessary but certainly would help. I don't think the extra localized pressure of the extra line around the foil at the tack could do the foil any good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbeth View Post
Sorry, not feasible - I'd have to get someone to climb to the top of the mast, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that, and I don't want to have to pay for it, and I don't see it as necessary if I put a pennant in the right place.
If you say you don't want to install a halyard restrainer because it's too hard, consider the alternative: a broken furling system, and the potential for breaking your forestay. As long as your angles are correct, then it might be OK without one. What furling system do you have? Masthead or fractional rig?

Whether you put it at the tack or the head, if the distance between the tack and the top swivel is the same (based on the foil length) then it shouldn't matter. You biggest issue is to determine if your halyard angle to the furling gear is correct or not. Gord is right.
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Old 06-06-2012, 14:48   #22
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

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Sorry, not feasible - I'd have to get someone to climb to the top of the mast, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that, and I don't want to have to pay for it, and I don't see it as necessary if I put a pennant in the right place.
So what's your plan when something breaks or a halyard shackle pops loose? Sometimes you have to send someone to the top of the mast. It's part of sailing. Sorry if I sound harsh but that's the way it is. I've been part of the way up a mast in a gale and big seas which I wouldn't wish on anyone. Going up when the boat is at the dock is a non-event.

Masts are not maintenance free. Sheaves need to be lubed. VHF antennas need to be changed. Wind instruments break. Rigging should be inspected. What if a split ring or pin has fallen out of place? Luff tracks should be sprayed with Sail-Kote. I'm lazy but I'm still up my mast a few times a year.

If you can't or won't go up the rig yourself, hire a rigger. A rigger can install a halyard restrainer very quickly. I can guarantee you that if you damage your furler or forestay, that hour of a riggers time is something you will wish you had invested in. A good rigger can look at your furler and tell you if you need a restrainer. They don't all require restrainers. I know this because I've made it a point to investigate when I notice the absence of one on a boat that we're replacing a headsail on.
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Old 06-06-2012, 15:01   #23
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

A lot depends on the length of your fairlead car. On some boats, the only way to get a good sheeting angle is to adjust the clew height with pennants. For a poorly fit sail, this could involve pennants on both the head and tack.
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Old 06-06-2012, 19:05   #24
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Re: Pennant at top or bottom ?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
A lot depends on the length of your fairlead car. On some boats, the only way to get a good sheeting angle is to adjust the clew height with pennants. For a poorly fit sail, this could involve pennants on both the head and tack.
Adjusting clew height with pennants works if the sail is pretty short on the luff which is undesirable most of the time. If the existing leads are too far aft, a better way to solve the problem is just adding a twing (snatch block attached by a piece of line going to a padeye or some other fixed point).

Ultimately, the best solution is using a properly designed and built sail that will help the boat perform as well as possible.
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