Optimum Sail Material for Large Performance Cruiser, Chapter 12

[UNCIVILIZED]

The loads on the sails on a 50'er are Big. Let alone the main on a catamaran that size. Too big to really expect dacron to hold it's shape well for any length of time. Especially the wovens. That's just the reality of it, more or less. So it's either frequent recuts, with mediocre shape except when the sail's brand new. And replacing it more often. Or switching to a higher tech, lower stretch construction.


I know that quite a lot of the folks here who have Hydranet sails love the stuff. So you might start a poll or thread on it. Ditto your top laminate choices. And there are also a lot of members who have laminated sails that very much like them. Though yes, a good number of them aren't in the tropics. But are you concerned about how mildew may look, or its possible structural effects on the sails? As you can get some laminates which are fairly dark in color.

[BigBeakie]

Thanks Unciv, good feedback.

Dacron is out of the question, as you and several sail makers have confirmed. My concern with laminate mold is mostly effect on structural strength and sail durability, thats why I'm attracted to the new North Nordac.

Was Just hoping someone here has used it for awhile, although I realise it has only been released a month or so ago.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Kenomac]

We replaced with DYS tri radial cut sails with Sailcoat from Dolphin Sails over the past two seasons. No long term experience yet, but the manufacturer claims we should expect 30,000 NM. So far, they're working out well.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Our need is bluewater cruising for our new 50' cat, with alot of cruising in tropical areas, and hoping for at least 5 plus years from the sails.

50' cat, bluewater, tropics, no mildew, +5 years . . . . is a difficult spot.

Our last set was pretty heavy DP DYS cloth (North designed/sewn). They were pretty big/heavy sails (hence some of my comments to UnCiv about throwing extra sails around); but they held up quite well and had pretty minimal mildew issues. With triradial laminate sails there are design details which significantly extend life (because the common initial failure points are pretty well known), which the sail makers usually ignore, but they can be pushed to 'do better'.

My experience with hydra net has been on smaller boats/loads than that, so I can't comment directly on how it might hold up. It is a cloth I have never really figured out from an engineering perspective - their test numbers are not all that great, but out in the real world they seem to do well.

There are other 50'ish cloth options, but I am honestly a bit out of date on them. Just for instance still in the North line - the NPL TOUR Ultra is their equivalent of DYS and is/was a quite fine cloth. I have the sense it did a bit more mildew than DYS but know they were working on that and may well be solved by now - but all the paneled cloths are out of favor at North because they are pushing the 3di technology. Someone else can probably give more current advice.

I wonder what their fine print says re lifespan?

just looked it up . . . . North warranty "fine print":
"The expected lifespan from the date of delivery is: 5 years for North Panel Cloth Coastal and Radian sails, 4 Years for North Panel Laminate Tour sails and 3 years for 3Di Endurance Sails."

...........

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Thanks Unciv, good feedback.

Dacron is out of the question, as you and several sail makers have confirmed. My concern with laminate mold is mostly effect on structural strength and sail durability, thats why I'm attracted to the new North Nordac.

Was Just hoping someone here has used it for awhile, although I realise it has only been released a month or so ago.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I have three seasons and about 15,000 miles now on my carbon/technora laminate sails, and there is not a spot of mold (knocking on wood) in them, and the shape is still indistinguishable from new.

My sailmaker told me at the time, that the current (at the time) generation of laminate sails are cured in autoclaves and highly resistant to delamination and mold -- nothing like earlier generations of laminate sails. He told me I could expect 10 years or more, and 30,000 or 40,000 miles out of them.

Judging by my experience so far, I think he may be right.

For me now it's laminate all the way. I will never buy another Dacron sail. It would have been worth switching to laminate even had these sails been end of life today. But they are very far from end of life! I guess I'll easily get another 15,000 miles out of them. Meanwhile, Dacron sails would have lost their shape already in two or three thousand miles. There is simply no comparison.

I do take good care of them -- slack the halyards when not in use; never reef the headsails. Also, I have two alternative headsails so the miles have been distributed between them to some extent.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

carbon/technora laminate sails . . . . . He told me I could expect 10 years or more, and 30,000 or 40,000 miles out of them.

I think 30,000 miles is probably about right. For us that was about 3 years Spectra/dyneema definitely has the most issue with mold - I believe because (of its relatively low melting point) you can not give it the same heat cure as the other high mod fibers - but it is the most fatigue resistant fiber, and better on UV than the Aramid fibers. That NPL TOUR Ultra I mentioned above has a carbon option however I have gotten mixed experiences with carbon in cruising sails. It is by far the least flex/fatigue resistant - so the outcome/durability depends a lot on type of use and operator smoothness.

I'm not sure if I have ever written this up before, but let me note the specific things we asked sail designers to do to extend durability.

1. In paneled sails (triradial and cross cut, does not apply to string sails); often the designers put much lighter (or less dpi) cloth in low load areas and heavier/stronger cloth in high load areas. This makes some sense, saves weight and cost. However, the low load panels deform over time differently than the high load panels and at some point you get really ugly spots at the interface/seam/join. So, you really want to ask the designer to smooth these transitions as much as possible. In our last mainsail, we just said s^&*w-it and had them put the same (strong) cloth weight everywhere - made for a heavy sail but smooth panel to panel its whole life.

2. There is (usually) a piece of tape folded over the leach - it traps the leach cord and finishes the back edge of the sail. However, this piece of tape creates a 'flutter/stress riser' and often the sail gets really weak right in front of the tape because the flutter is forced to concentrated there. So again, you want to ask the designer to smooth out the transition there as much as possible. The tape should not be folded in half (with the edges at the same place on both sides of the sail) but rather have one edge rather for ward of the other (so you have two smaller step downs). And it is worth having lighter more flexible (more expensive) tape.

3. Cruising sails are often sharply bend and crushed under the reef points. This is bad for all sail fabrics but particularly bad for mylar laminates. There is a combination of sail design and reefing hardware design and sailing handling care that will minimize this. Exactly how depends on your reefing set-up but a good designer should know how.

4. (mainsail) Spreader rubbing areas are particularly vulnerable in Water boats">blue water boats because we run downwind a lot. The spreader patches (for full hoist and all reefs) should really only be put on after the sail has been used a bit - that can be pain if you are trying to get a sail and leave. But it is hard to get them exactly right otherwise. We ended up with a design with think uhmw sheet circles at the spreader tip areas, covered by longer pieces of decently heavy spectra cloth to cover the whole spreader contact area, covered by dacron sticky tape to smooth the transition. And in sails with sewn seams, we had heaver thread in the seams than might get dragged over the spreaders if you hoisted or reefed downwind.

5. Also downwind, full battens can wear/rub a lot on the stays. We had very heavy spectra webbing there, with again uhmw sheet under the webbing in the biggest contact/wear points. Rod rigging helps minimize this (vs wire).

6. We had vertical battens put in our fractional working jib - sail maker liked that ot helped with sail shape/speed, but I liked that it reduced flogging. They roller furled perfectly no problem.

7. We had two webbing eyelets sewn in the jibs that when in the foil, right at the foil bottom. We used a light spectra lashing around the foil there - to hold the sail closer to the foil and tape load off the bottom of the bolt rope. Otherwise the bolt rope would eventually start to tear there because there is a stress riser.

mmm . . . that's what I remember right now, may remember a few more details later.

[Kestrahl]

We design and supply loads of big catamaran sails around SE Asia.

The majority are still dacron with extensive 2 ply leech. They are heavy but actually do hold their shape most of the time. They will stretch if 1. They are not designed correctly 2. If poor quality dacron is used. 3. Incorrect battens are used.
Hydra-Net is the next most common fabric, it isn't really that stiff and easier than flaking a new 2ply dacron sail. But is expensive.
Laminates - We are quite often replacing the sail because someone talked the owner into a laminate and it failed. No two are the same, some can handle the heat and some can't. Still do some but mostly for boats in cold climates and fabrics we know are going to be okay lamination wise.

[TheThunderbird]

Dear DH,
1) how did you blow out the Yankee? On a close tack, l suppose
2) can you PM the maker/quality type of your Carbon/Technora sail ?

Laminate costs the double of a dacron sail, or more. In choosing them, you either Believe your sailmaker or,... Comparison among different brands/makes/materials is overly difficult... Unless you go for the best ones.

Dacron: l chose for tri-radial cut to add to shape retention. Contender (and others?) has a special dacron only for this cut, with extra strength along the lines of force.
On hooks, and not being a racer, dacron was the only choice (hydranet, I don't buy into it, sorry)

[BigBeakie]

Evans, thanks alot. That is gold

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Evans, thanks alot. That is gold

+1!

Really valuable information; thanks Evans!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Dear DH,
1) how did you blow out the Yankee? On a close tack, l suppose
2) can you PM the maker/quality type of your Carbon/Technora sail ?

Laminate costs the double of a dacron sail, or more. In choosing them, you either Believe your sailmaker or,... Comparison among different brands/makes/materials is overly difficult... Unless you go for the best ones.

Dacron: l chose for tri-radial cut to add to shape retention. Contender (and others?) has a special dacron only for this cut, with extra strength along the lines of force.
On hooks, and not being a racer, dacron was the only choice (hydranet, I don't buy into it, sorry)

I can't lie about how I blew out the yankee, because another member on here was a witness to it and would call me out on it

The sail was worn out anyway, but it would not have failed as it did, had I not been trying to make it flatter than it was capable of being, by overtensioning the leech.

Yes, it happened during 1500 miles of sailing hard on the wind and tacking, in strong conditions (blowing about 25 true when it blew up).


My sails are also radial cut. I can't say whether they are worth it or not (more expensive because of much greater waste of sailcloth), but my sailmaker recommended it. And they look gorgeous! Anything you spend so much money on, ought to be nice to look at too, it seems to me

[Kestrahl]

Unfortunately the radial carbon/technora cruising cloths have been discontinued. The Bainbridge CFG and Dimension GPL-DT.
Still Dyneema/Spectra radial cruising laminates around... DYS SXI etc

estarzinger
1. Its not much lighter cloth, the difference is normally 0.5-1oz and the transition should be well outside the high load area of the sail.

2. Its called tape displaced, for a cruising sail the cloth should be heavy and fairly balanced construction then this is not so much of a problem.

7. If the tack cutback is correct then this isn't so much a problem as the tack takes the load off the bottom of the lufftape. unless the distance from the tack to the feeder is quite long (like furlex).

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

1. Its not much lighter cloth, the difference is normally 0.5-1oz and the transition should be well outside the high load area of the sail.

Well, it has been a distinct noticeable issue with North, Doyle and UK laminate sails. I have had all recut because of this issue.

2. Its called tape displaced, for a cruising sail the cloth should be heavy and fairly balanced construction then this is not so much of a problem.

Again, has been a distinct noticeable issue with North and Quantum mainsails.

7. If the tack cutback is correct then this isn't so much a problem as the tack takes the load off the bottom of the lufftape. unless the distance from the tack to the feeder is quite long (like furlex).

I have mostly used harkin furlers, and the sail makers have known the specific models. And all have created this issue without the 'tie forward'.

I don't know what your background is . . . but we seem to have different experiences in these areas. Our sails were used in distinctively long distance blue water application.

............

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

............

16 years sailmaking in NZ and now workiing with a factory in Sri-Lanka that makes 50+ sails a week. As well as full time cruising the pacific and SE Asia for 3 years.

It sounds like the body fabric was very uni-directional in strength for the first two issues. Cruising - where upwind performance isn't critical, it is often better to use a more balanced cloth and sacrifice some strength in the primary load direction for durability, this goes for radial and cross cut. A lot of sailmakers are in the racing mindset.

[SailingFan]

So, then if I need to replace my dacron sails (and I don't know if I need to yet, though I do need a spare main and foresail because I only have the one of each that came with my 1978 H27, and I have not used them yet), and I am NOT racing at all, but wanting to do coastal cruising along Florida's coast, and perhaps on nicer days make runs to the Caribbean, is dacron a good replacement material, given the fact that my wallet is running a bit thin for some time now? In other words, is it the case that a smaller vessel like a 27' coastal cruiser going to benefit more from the less costly dacron than it would (over the longer haul) from the more costly alternatives for hanked on sails?

I do not have any sort of furler, and again, have no interest in racing or attempting passages in hurricanes (and in fact intend to entirely remove the sails in a moored or docked condition blow if I am able to reach the vessel). If dacron is the best cost-effective material, how does it hold up under light service such as this, over the span of say ten years or so?