Norseman fittings sources?

[Jim Cate]

Just discovered a badly cracked Norseman T-ball fitting on a lower shroud. I'm having difficulty in sourcing a replacement. Does anyone know of a vendor who still has Norseman stock? So far I have struck out...

BTW, I inspected the rig visually just before we set out from Tasmania a few months and ~1000 miles ago. Looked ok then. We are bloody lucky to still have a one-piece mast!! This defect developed remarkably quickly.

Jim

[Cap Erict3]

I struck out online but found a local rigger with some cones stashed.

[Paul L]

Try Secosouth in Miami. They recently supplied me with some of the Norsemen cones I needed. Basically you are screwed if you need a lot of Norsemen replacements.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Jim, Glad you caught that before you had a gravity storm!
What size are you looking for, & do you care where it comes from? As in what country, as well as state or province. Plus, if the part's coming from overseas, to you, what hoops need jumping through as far as customs & import rules, if any? And would you need or want extra accesory fittings, such as cones, or the rubber mast inserts, etc.?

From the picture, it looks as if the lead the lead may not be entirely fair. Which, if such is the case, would contribute to said fitting's early demise. Thoughts?

Also, just curious, but is that truly a shroud, or a runner? I ask as most fixed shrouds have conventional tangs. And on non racing boats, my taste runs to converting as much as possible to fixed tangs, even for runners.

[Snowpetrel]

Thats a problem on a huge number of levels. Sorry to hear about it. I hope you find a reasonable priced solution.

Good on you for spotting it, goes to show how important regular rig checks are!

Out of curiosity how old are those T balls, and what size wire?

[JPA Cate]

It is the lower port shroud. 10mm Dyform (sp?) wire. THe pic was taken just before Jim eased the tension off it. The age is unknown. They could be original. We replaced the ones for the jumper struts when we bought the boat, but all the others looked fine.

Ann

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Thats a problem on a huge number of levels. Sorry to hear about it. I hope you find a reasonable priced solution.

Good on you for spotting it, goes to show how important regular rig checks are!

Out of curiosity how old are those T balls, and what size wire?

Ben, and others...

The T-balls themselves are AFAIK original, ie 26 years and >100K miles. The Norseman T-ball stems are a lot beefier than the swage types I've seen, and I thought they were invulnerable. I was wrong...

The wire is 10 mm Dyform, and is <10 years old. It was upsized from 3/8" 1x19, affording about a 50% increase in strength and lots less stretch... maybe increasing shock loading on the terminals.

I think that I can get new fittings from SeaRig in NZ, and may go that route. I know nothing about that company, but it is the remnant of Bob Graham's old firm and he made good stuff. Anyone have words about their gear?

What I'd like to do is just replace the T-head and stem portion. This bit screws into the Norseman terminal part and would be a lot less expensive than the whole fitting. So far no luck in locating such, though.

Anyhow, I look up through the mid hatch and see a standing mast... I'm a lucky dude!

Jim

[Snowpetrel]

Thanks for the info Ann, I feel for you guys, maybe a good regular routine of dye penetrant checks will reassure you about the other ones? It always amazes me how cracked stuff doesn't always seem to break right away. I guess the real loads don't exceed 25-35% of break so the crack propogates pretty slowly?

I got new sets of tangs made up for a reasonable price. But it might be much cheaper to go to the dark side and swage on new T balls if you can't find new norseman ones? I am interested to hear what you do.

It often seems that lowers give problems on cruising boats, I guess because we sail reefed more often than the racing boys, or maybe due to the reduced length (and stretch) and heavy boom they get more shock loading.

[UNCIVILIZED]

T-ball fittings are (or were) notorious for failing rapidly, much of the time with little warning. Which is why they aren't used more lot for standing rigging, with the exception of some grand prix racing boats. And even then...

Still, no fitting of that age, especially made of stainless, is above suspicion. And 100,000nm is a lot of miles for any rigging. So given that one's failing now, traditional wisdom would say that the other rigging bits of that vintage, should also be replaced. As they've seen the same number of miles & conditions as the broken one has.

When it comes to inspecting things, I'm a fan of dye penetrant testing too. As well as using a pocket microscope so that I can inspect things a bit better than with just my eyeball. Though I've even seen rigging that was recently X-rayed fail. Probably due to work hardening. Sometimes Neptune has a funny sense of humor.


Snowpetrel I wasn't aware of cruising boats having more trouble with their lowers than racers. Where are you drawing your conclusions from?
Perhaps it's due to the fact that racers have more panels & shrouds in their rigs. So that the loadings get spread out amongst the extra shrouds. Extra as compared to a cruiser's rig that is. And thus a racer's lowers see a smaller load vs. their breaking strength, as compared to the lowers on a cruiser. Since generally, the lowers on a racer are the same size as the cap shrouds, on rigs with continuous rod anyway. Ditto on rigs sporting continous wire.


Ann & Jim, if I run across the correct part in my travels, I'll be sure to let you guys know. And again, I'm glad that you caught this.

[UNCIVILIZED]

It's a long shot, but if you're truly stuck, you might see if it's possible to have a swage on fitting of the proper size, machined down & threaded. So that it could be subsituted for the correct, off the shelf, part.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ I should have said cruisers often seem to have problems with the lowers. I dont really know if its more common than racers or not. But I have heard about, and seen of a lot of issues with lowers on heavily rigged cruising boats.

We could start another thread to discuss this so as not to derail this one if you would like?

[Ziggy]

Jim--try Rigging Only (riggingonly.com). They still list the Norseman line on their web site.

[Paul L]

Jim
I ended up using Searig fittings from KZ Marine, NZ to replace the 11mm Norsemen tbars with ball fittings. Clearly not a direct replacement and required some mast side surgery.

[Cruisingscotts]

Both Fisheries Supply, ask for Paul at fisheries, and Defender sell Norsmen and will ship to where ever. Not sure if they have the same T ball end configuration or will work on the Dyform wire but switching to Hayne may be a option, on some of the their fittings they offer a longer vs. to accomidate cutting back the wire some. They are very easy to instal, grinder with a cuttoff wheel, file, wrenches and loctite. Would really be suspect of the other side for obvious reasons.

[Jim Cate]

Thanks to all of you who have tried to help... much appreciated!

Both Defender and Fisheries seem to have a few odd bits of Norseman left in their stocks as shown on their website, but not any T-ball fittings. They apparently did get their supplies from Navtec, and those worthy buggers have stopped vending (or maybe manufacturing, I dunno) Norseman products. I've called rigging only... their voicemail recording was made back in February which does not inspire confidence... the time difference makes voice contact awkward, so I've e-mailed them, but with little hope of success. Fisheries were more upfront: don't have much left in stock, can't get anything new. End of line!

For Paul L.: were the Searig fittings that you used T-ball types? The local vendor says they should be a direct replacement, and the illustration in the Searig catalog (which shows rod rigging terminals, not wire, but the vendor says they are available) looks identical to the Norseman. And, were you happy with teh quality of the fittings?

And yes, it is my intention to replace all 4 shroud T-balls ASAP, though I'd go north (carefully!) with only the cracked one replaced. It is cold, rainy and depressing here! And yes again, I will use a swaged fitting if all else fails. I also considered trying to machine appropriate threads on a swage fitting shank... need to discover what the dimensions of the shank are on those fittings. In general, they are considerably smaller diameter than the Norsemen, and I'm doubtful that one that fit my 10 mm type sockets would be large enough to work... but I'll look into it.

Again, thanks to all!

Jim