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Old 11-06-2016, 14:44   #1
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Nomenclature

I'm scuppered! Never knew the name for a particular sail that I should like to add to TrentePieds' inventory, because she is under-canvassed and I don't want the hassle of a spinnaker. Can anyone enlighten me?

The rag was set on a yard, but in a cutter. In a fore'n'aft schooner the corresponding sail is called the topsl. Working cutters in the Baltic used such sails a hundred years ago, and in Danish (and I assume in Swedish) they were called "bredfok". German woulda been quite similar, perhaps "Breitfok".

The yard was hung on a crane so as not to interfere with the gaff forks and the mainsl hoops. It was braced to the transom corners and the sail sheeted to near the same points.

Does anyone know an English name for such a sail?

TrentePieds
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Old 11-06-2016, 15:19   #2
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Re: Nomenclature

A picture or three of the sail in question would be helpful.
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Old 11-06-2016, 16:20   #3
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Re: Nomenclature

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j...m7FEmZGw7O4cgQ


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._205_tons.jpeg

?

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Old 11-06-2016, 16:32   #4
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Re: Nomenclature

Google translated the term for me as "bredfock", from following barnakiel's links. Is that the type of sail you meant, Trente Pieds?
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Old 11-06-2016, 18:21   #5
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Re: Nomenclature

Lets see if my sketch did indeed attach :-)
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 11-06-2016, 18:32   #6
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Re: Nomenclature

Right-ho - it did, so the "bredfok" is, obviously, the square sail. In this sketch there are two yards, and it's a gaff cutter, so you'll have to translate in your mind's eye to a modern marconi rigged masthead sloop and only the upper yard.

I'm proposing a loose-footed squaresl since my only purpose for it is to run before with a sail that may be a bit more hassle to hoist (tho I doubt it!) than a modern spinnaker, and much easier to control. I wouldn't expect to wear it with the wind forward of, say, two points abaft the beam.

I would brace the yard to the transom corners. The sheets, since we'd never wear the sail by the wind, would prolly come to a point on the existing tracks a few feet aft of the mast.

So my original question was: What would you call such a sail in Henglish?

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Old 11-06-2016, 18:42   #7
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Re: Nomenclature

How about "Loose Footed Topsail??

Though, the BredFock seems natural to use. Loose footed BredFock.
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Old 11-06-2016, 19:34   #8
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Re: Nomenclature

As usual, I have nothing helpful to add but can't resist throwing in a comment.

From James Thurber, "The Story of Sailing":

'... and so it went, resulting in the topgallant foresail, the top-topgallant mizzen sail, the top-top-topgallant main topsail, and the tip-top-top-gallant-gallant mainsail (pron. "twee twee twee twa twa").'

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Old 11-06-2016, 20:11   #9
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Re: Nomenclature

:-) thanx people.

Let's go with Bredfok, given that sailors of yore were pretty polyglot in any event. Maybe I'll stitch up the rag outta broadcloth :-)!

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Old 11-06-2016, 20:20   #10
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Re: Nomenclature

TrentePieds,

There used to be a single luff "gullwing" sail, made from spinnaker cloth, a "twin headsail, but with the single luff. It could be set flying, although some of them hanked onto the forestay. Friends with a Trismus had one. much easier to handle than a traditional spinnaker if you were short handed, 'cause no pole. I'm thinking such a sail would be a lot easier to handle than a square sail.

FWIW, we've used twin headsail, that weren't twins when sailing ddw. One poles the larger one out to windward, and the breeze keeps the smaller one full. Often when doing this, we would over- trim the main, reefed to be flat, and used it more for roll damping than for speed.

So, I guess what I'm getting at is that have your squares'l if you want, but I'm thinking there are easier ways to get the same effect, and without having that heavy yard aloft.

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Old 12-06-2016, 09:20   #11
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Re: Nomenclature

Yes Ann, you are right - the Swedes were keen on the "gullwings" seventy years ago. They have the advantage, obviously, that as you bear up and start the weather sheet, the "wing" on the weather side will collapse and mate with the one to leeward. The "mated" headsail will draw immediately. Not well, necessarily, but it will draw :-)

To come back on a dead run you still had to go frwd and sort out the divorce. MyBeloved is not keen on divorces in general, and to send her frwd to sort one out on a pitching deck doesn't strike me as particularly productive, or even safe for her :-)

So we are back to fitting out to suit your trade :-)

I haven't run the numbers, but given modern materials, we are no longer talking about a yard weighing a ton and a half, and TrentePieds is, as I say, only a toy. In some ways the "square" is only an intellectual exercise, but, quaintly, I might favour a halyard run back to the cockpit, and a "car" of some sort to run the yard up the cove on the foreside of the mast. The thrust of the drawing sail would have to be taken by braces and sheets of course. Stowing the yard twixt uses would be a pain :-)

Anyway, my original query was just a search for a word, a name, I thot I ought to know in English as well as in Danish. A vessel that was rigged as I showed was known as " en galease", but in English "a galeass" is quite a different ship.

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Old 12-06-2016, 12:18   #12
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Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
TrentePieds,

So, I guess what I'm getting at is that have your squares'l if you want, but I'm thinking there are easier ways to get the same effect, and without having that heavy yard aloft.

Ann
Yep, handling that yard when the boat is rolling about will be interesting.

I have a vague memory of having seen a gaffer where the booms could be split and a doubled sail opened out for downwind work.
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Old 12-06-2016, 13:14   #13
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Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
How about "Loose Footed Topsail??

Though, the BredFock seems natural to use. Loose footed BredFock.
It is not a topsail. And bredfock is a Swedish name. Breitfock in German. Bryfok in Polish. Etc.

The question is what you call it in English?

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Old 12-06-2016, 13:18   #14
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Re: Nomenclature

Fore course perhaps?

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Old 12-06-2016, 13:25   #15
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Re: Nomenclature

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ore_course.png

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