No Traveller

[poiu]

Originally Posted by richr

Hi everyone. As a racing sailor can I submit the following?

Sailboats work in many different modes....

Thanks and a good first post richr.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by richr

Hi everyone. As a racing sailor can I submit the following?

Sailboats work in many different modes. Here we are talking about close-hauled and close-reaching, in light airs (looking for power), moderate airs (powered-up) and strong wind (overpowered). The boundaries between these modes vary between boats.

Close-hauled in light airs, you ideally want to pull the boom to Centreline without strapping it down too hard. You want twist, without forgoing height. Without a traveller or handy-billy, i.e. with a single-point centre main, you can't do that. So you simply cannot sail efficiently. You either have to sail 5-10 deg low with the boom down, or strap it down too hard and lose serious speed.

Do most cruisers with heavy, overladen, 30-40 footers want to sail upwind in under 10kts, making 4-5 kts if you're lucky, maybe 2-3 kts VMG? Probably not, so who cares - as has been said by many already.

So what of the big performance cruisers that have been pictures with centre main? Well, I did say the boundaries between modes are different. If you are 70 feet of carbon fibre, with clouds of sail, a tall rig that hunts higher and not overladen with provisions and live aboard gear, then you get powered up pretty quick! And generate apparent wind. Which means you don't mind pulling down on the boom quite a bit in order to get near the centreline.

For those smashing yachts, you'd probably have quite a nice sail upwind in 8 to 10 kts. The wind below which you'd really miss a traveller is probably more like 6 kts rather than 10 - and below that I guess they are motoring, like us mere mortals.

Another factor is the relative height of the boom. On a big yacht, the boom is incredibly long but still only needs to be 7 feet above the cockpit floor to give headroom So the geometry of a centre main is less harmful - the takeoff point could be effectively (relatively) closer to the boom than on your 30 footer.

Big boats of a pure racing persuasion, of course, have travellers.

Once you are powered-up, regardless of your boat, you don't mind - in fact you want - to heave down on the mainsheet and reduce twist. So a centre main does minimal harm. If you see an average racing yacht in 12-14 knots, they have a tight main leech and the traveller is usually only a couple of inches above centreline, with boom slightly below.

Once overpowered, or close reaching then (ignoring the subtleties of fore/aft mast bend, which is affected by the vang but probably negligible on a stiff cruiser mast), it's all about the vang. If your vang is both powerful and strong, a centre main does you fine. The problem is that technology of yesteryear gave us neither strength nor power. Back to our 70 footers - bet they have loads of hydro. And also they don't often plan to sail in 25 knots plus.

All of which leads to my personal conclusion. I will never own a yacht without a traveller - and one that works - because I might want to sail upwind when underpowered, because I really, really, like sailing efficiently even when cruising, and because I am uncomfortable close-reaching in 30knots with total reliance on the vang, within the constraints of any vang technology I can reasonably afford.

If you don't want to sail upwind until 10 kts plus, and you can't be bothered to tinker, and if your vang is trustworthy within your personal upper wind limit, then a centre main can work just fine, and you can use a handy-billy to fill in when you feel the inclination.

A most excellent post which greatly advances the conversation Welcome to CF.

A great analysis. But adds yet one other thing you can't do without a traveler, namely:

* Sail hard on the wind in light wind where you want to get the boom up but don't want to close off the leech.

A powerful vang doesn't solve this.

Which we can add to:

* Getting the boom above the centerline

and

* Feathering the sail in a gust

and

* Adjusting the angle of attack without changing the shape of the sail

and

* Adjust the angle of attack at all when the boom is near the centerline.



People sail in different ways, and I would not want to impose my way on anyone else. But I personally would not want to be without a traveler. For some people, like Poiu, the traveler is something for "ultimate control" or "the last 0.1 knot". For others, like me, and I guess Richr, the traveler is a very basic, very fundamental control. The more I think about it, the more I realize that I would be simply lost without it.

Thanks to Richr also for giving the correct term -- "handy billy" for what I have incorrectly been calling "barber hauler". I think a barber hauler changes the angle of a sheet, not this. My bad.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Based on that experience, I'm finding it hard to imagine that those traveler-less performance cruisers like in Paolo's photos will be so good to use upwind. I am guessing that owners of such boats just must not sail much upwind -- using the large engine like on the HR instead.

The one thing those yachts all have in common in addition to not having a traveller, is a completely clear deck. No fenders, dinghies or even seat cushions. It's all about selling the dream as Sir won't want one of those ghastly rail track things which might catch memsahibs fingers and toes plus spoil the clean uncluttered look.

Pete

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A most excellent post which greatly advances the conversation Welcome to CF.

A great analysis. But adds yet one other thing you can't do without a traveler, namely:

* where you want to get the boom up but don't want to close off the leech.

A powerful vang doesn't solve this.

Which we can add to:

* Getting the boom above the centerline

and

* Feathering the sail in a gust

and

* Adjusting the angle of attack without changing the shape of the sail

and

* Adjust the angle of attack at all when the boom is near the centerline.
...

Ritchr: Great post!

Dockhead: regarding "Sail hard on the wind in light wind" that's a thing that you do not want to do, on really light winds. On winds of 5k even on a cruiser racer if you sail hard on the wind you do a worse VMG. The boat will sail much faster a bit off and it compensates in what regards VMG.

[richr]

"sail hard on the wind in light winds". Nobody wants to do it 😉 it's a question of down to what wind strength you do want to go.

Dead right, in light winds (i.e. very underpowered, sailing at well below hull-speed) you mustn't pinch, strap sails in tight, or close the leeches. If you think close-hauled means always doing these things, then you'll only ever enjoy sailing in force 3+ and good luck to you.

If on the other hand you want to be able to make a decent fist of 7 to 10 knots, then let your sails breathe: build flow over the foils in the air and those in the water before trying to point high. To do this you need some way to get the boom on or near centreline by pulling more horizontally than downwards - hence the traveller.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Ritchr: Great post!

Dockhead: regarding "Sail hard on the wind in light wind" that's a thing that you do not want to do, on really light winds. On winds of 5k even on a cruiser racer if you sail hard on the wind you do a worse VMG. The boat will sail much faster a bit off and it compensates in what regards VMG.

Yes, I agree with this. We always track carefully and sail to best VMG to windward, which is very often much lower than you think. I have an instrument programmed to read out VMG to windward in the cockpit. Still, that doesn't necessarily remove the necessity of sailing sometimes with the leech a bit open and the boom centered. As Richr said, you often need to be able to keep plenty of shape in the sail in light conditions, and you don't want to be forced to pull out that shape in order to get the boom up.

Paradoxically, in VERY light conditions, I find that the airflow stops being willing to stay attached to a mainsail with a lot of shape in it, and will then need a bit of flattening again.

In very light conditions, I often keep the boom ABOVE the centerline in order to have the correct angle of attack with the leech well open. If you don't have a traveler, you'll need a handy-billy to do that -- PITA.


Like Richr and, I guess, most sailors, when trying to get upwind in very light conditions, I crack off some, sometimes a lot, to build up speed and get the keel working producing lift and get apparent wind going, then gradually pull the boat up onto the wind. With the shape of the sail just right, what you really need for this maneuver is to be able to pull the boom up horizontally without changing the shape of the sail, as you head up onto the wind. I would be totally lost without my traveler.


Total thread drift, but I discovered after installing my twing system with my then-new blade jib, which gives me some control over the horizontal position of the jib clew, that the jib is no less sensitive than the main to fine adjustments of angle of attack. This was a total revelation in jib trimming for me. So I will take this concept with me to the next boat, which I am hoping to have built at KM Yachts in Holland. The owner of KM Yachts uses on his own boat, and swears by a massive aluminum Hoyt boom for his jib, and recommended it to me for this very reason. I am studying this, but the twing system I have now does give a great deal of control over angle of attack of the jib, and gives it in a very simple and elegant way, so might still be preferable. Maybe the only drawback is it can't pull the clew out beyond the rail, as a boom can.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The one thing those yachts all have in common in addition to not having a traveller, is a completely clear deck. No fenders, dinghies or even seat cushions. It's all about selling the dream as Sir won't want one of those ghastly rail track things which might catch memsahibs fingers and toes plus spoil the clean uncluttered look.

Pete

Let alone blood on the teak from a stubbed toe.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The one thing those yachts all have in common in addition to not having a traveller, is a completely clear deck. No fenders, dinghies or even seat cushions. It's all about selling the dream as Sir won't want one of those ghastly rail track things which might catch memsahibs fingers and toes plus spoil the clean uncluttered look.

Pete

I dislike the type of sailors that sail with the fenders over the deck. I hate also to have my dinghy over the deck but I hate even more to pull it over the water.



I would love to have the dinghy garages those yachts I posted have but unfortunately only at 50ft and over that is possible and I don't have the budget.

There is nothing like to sail on a boat with uncluttered clean decks.

It is not only beautiful as provide you a clean view forward and makes less hazardous any going to the bow with bad weather.

[Cheechako]

Unless you have a flat deck boat for a full width traveller, the traveller on most cruising boats isn't worth much any way. It's not wide enough to do much. Especially since the car and etc leave it maybe 6" from the end of the traveller.. The "Barber Hauler" approach is infinitely mo betta for flattening a main, and doesnt allow it to lift and useable a multitude of other places on the boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

I would love to have the dinghy garages those yachts I posted have but unfortunately only at 50ft and over that is possible and I don't have the budget.

There is nothing like to sail on a boat with uncluttered clean decks.

It is not only beautiful as provide you a clean view forward and makes less hazardous any going to the bow with bad weather.

I think we all like tidy decks, even if not all of us achieve them in real life.

However, boats of this type -- Wally-style flat expanses of decks, like the one you posted here:



Are not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions. That deck arrangement is a style statement -- for making a dramatic pose of coolness at the yacht club, not for being and working at sea.

I spent a whole day on a boat just like this (a Swan 60; what is depicted here is a Swan 65), and even in calm conditions, we HATED the deck arrangement, all of us, including the pros who have spent several whole seasons on her. There is nothing to hold on to, nothing to sit on, no shelter from the wind or spray, and if you get caught by a boarding sea not clipped on, you are GONE. The boat I was on had had several dozen pad eyes screwed into the deck so that you could at least clip yourself on, and that's how we sailed -- clipped on, on a calm, sunny day! It was truly awful. In rough ocean conditions that deck would be a death trap.

You should hear what the professional sailors say about that deck arrangement and what words were addressed to the designer -- they are not fit to print. The only printable thing I can remember is this --

"Standing on this deck in a seaway when the boat is heeling even a little, is like standing on the edge of a pitched roof of a house in an earthquake."

[james247]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The HR 64: Hallberg-Rassy 64 Doesn't have any traveller, nor any extra sheeting points for the mainsheet. The end of the mainsheet is simply fixed to an eye on the centerline. How the heck do you trim the mainsail? Is the theory that if the vang is powerful enough, you can just use the mainsheet for all angle of attack adjustments? Does this actually work? Another boat I've been on without a traveller is a racing Swan 60, which has a winch below the after deck to control the mainsheet as the only control of boom angle. A racing boat, so this must not be such a wacky idea which so much compromises control. Anyone have any insight?

There are many factors in the control and shape of the main on bigger boats other than a traveller.
Mast pump up hydraulic lifting of the mast to tension the rigging for racing
Hydraulic boom vang
Hydraulic inner
Hydraulic back stays
Runners
Hydraulic check stays
Etc etc.

Personally when I'm cruising the less things that move are in direct proportion to the things that break. Keep it simple. As long I'm doing 250 miles a day in a 60 footer I'm pretty happy. It's about comfort not max speed.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we all like tidy decks, even if not all of us achieve them in real life.

However, boats of this type -- Wally-style flat expanses of decks, like the one you posted here:

Attachment 161636

Are not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions. That deck arrangement is a style statement -- for making a dramatic pose of coolness at the yacht club, not for being and working at sea.

I appreciate our tiny little protected center cockpit in our HR-35 with the high combing. It is a bit of a climb to step up and over out to the deck at times, but it feels nice and tucked-in up there behind the hard dodger when things start getting wild.

Even so we clip in to a padeye I installed just outside of the forward companionway hatch whenever we are alone abovedecks offshore, or when it gets the least bit uncalm. It's reachable before one even has to climb the steps. so we don't ever need to leave the safety of the cabin without being clipped in beforehand.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by james247

There are many factors in the control and shape of the main on bigger boats other than a traveller.
Mast pump up hydraulic lifting of the mast to tension the rigging for racing
Hydraulic boom vang
Hydraulic inner
Hydraulic back stays
Runners
Hydraulic check stays
Etc etc.

Personally when I'm cruising the less things that move are in direct proportion to the things that break. Keep it simple. As long I'm doing 250 miles a day in a 60 footer I'm pretty happy. It's about comfort not max speed.

Sure. I'm with Einstein -- make things as simple as possible. But no simpler, as he said. I think we've heard a lot of reasons why using a traveler is about a lot more than just speed.


Not really relevant to anything, but 250 miles a day is very hard to achieve on a 60 footer.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we all like tidy decks, even if not all of us achieve them in real life.

However, boats of this type -- Wally-style flat expanses of decks, like the one you posted here:

Attachment 161636

Are not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions. That deck arrangement is a style statement -- for making a dramatic pose of coolness at the yacht club, not for being and working at sea.

I spent a whole day on a boat just like this (a Swan 60; what is depicted here is a Swan 65), and even in calm conditions, we HATED the deck arrangement, all of us, including the pros who have spent several whole seasons on her. ....

Sorry but I find ridiculous that thing about the Swan 60 or 65 not to be suitable for sailing in ocean conditions.

You mix comfort with suitability and mix different types of boats. The Swan 60 is an offshore crusiser racer, a very sportive boat designed for racing or to be sailed by very sportive sailors that don't mind to cruise sailing the same way racers race in what regards spartan conditions (and the fun too).

It seems you mix what you like in what regards sailing with what all sailors like on that particular.

If we were talking about land veicules you would be saying that motorcycles are unsuitable for long range travel because they do not offer protection to rain wind or dust...and there are many that like to do long voyages in motorcycle, including me.

Regarding the Swan 65 it is not a cruiser racer, a high performance boat like the Swan 60, but a fast yacht to sail and live in style, a bluewater modern cruiser.

While the swan 60 is advertised by Swan as: "The Swan 60 FD was conceived to meet a growing demand for a model engineered for performance, comfort and style. This performance orientated Swan boasts high stability, direct steering system, foils, carbon fibre spar package, and easy handling results in a light, responsive yacht."

About the Swan 65 the designer German Frers say: "This new design was created practically simultaneously with the Swan 78 as a complement to the larger sister of the new bluewater line of yachts.

... Her medium light displacement hull is powerful and beamy giving very good form stability and a nice motion at sea. The hull shape ... has been optimized for fast all around performance in light to medium wind ranges within a modern wide stern envelope. ...

She will be a fun boat to own and sail the waters of the world.. She is modern but at the same time we have strived to conserve her softness and harmony of the earlier relatives avoiding hard unruly behaviour.

The same could be said of the deck with its modern design, uncluttered surfaces and straightforward, simple solutions to sail handling and life at sea."

Germán Frers

That picture I posted with the boat viewed from the stern gives not a good idea of the boat. This one is better at that:

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we all like tidy decks, even if not all of us achieve them in real life.

However, boats of this type -- Wally-style flat expanses of decks, like the one you posted here:

Attachment 161636

Are not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions. That deck arrangement is a style statement -- for making a dramatic pose of coolness at the yacht club, not for being and working at sea.

I spent a whole day on a boat just like this (a Swan 60; what is depicted here is a Swan 65), and even in calm conditions, we HATED the deck arrangement, all of us, including the pros who have spent several whole seasons on her. There is nothing to hold on to, nothing to sit on, no shelter from the wind or spray, and if you get caught by a boarding sea not clipped on, you are GONE. The boat I was on had had several dozen pad eyes screwed into the deck so that you could at least clip yourself on, and that's how we sailed -- clipped on, on a calm, sunny day! It was truly awful. In rough ocean conditions that deck would be a death trap.

You should hear what the professional sailors say about that deck arrangement and what words were addressed to the designer -- they are not fit to print. The only printable thing I can remember is this --

"Standing on this deck in a seaway when the boat is heeling even a little, is like standing on the edge of a pitched roof of a house in an earthquake."

IMHO that style is a great offshore deck as a baseline starting point anyway. But some gunnel would be preferred for sure.. Little exposed cabin trunk, minimal glass, wide side decks etc....