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Old 16-03-2016, 17:49   #1
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New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

I just received my new rigging from a respectable builder who's been doing this for decades. The root of the crimp is very abrupt compared to the old swages (see pic 1). When inspected closely, some metal tearing or surface cracks are evident in the transition area at the root of the crimp (see pic 2, not easy to see though). Since this condition extends around the circumference, I'm concerned freeze thaw or corrosion will be exacerbated and quickly weaken the shank of the swage. Is this surface tearing an acceptable / normal condition?

Thanks,
Zach
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Old 16-03-2016, 18:34   #2
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

One thing you can do is check if (by the markings on the terminal) there is a match with the diameter of the wire. At times, there are troubles where an imperial fitting has been applied onto a metric wire. They differ.

Otherwise the terminal shown is a Hayn which implies top shelf quality and unlikely to be used by a sub prime rigger. Also, it is as a single roll which again shows good craftmanship.

If the rigger has been in the business for a time and if the terminal specs match the wire, I would take it for granted you are dealing with bona fide work and materials.

BTW a transition like this ('abrupt') is not special - I have seen about the same on most terminals we have had.

Assumed innocent.

b.
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Old 17-03-2016, 03:55   #3
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

That tearing is not good, it is in a bad place and a groove such as that acts as a stress riser and could lead to cracking.


The reason there is a sharp transition rather than gentle as on the old one is that the roll form dies went too far for some reason.


I would not accept it and demand it be replaced.


As a structural material stainless steel has some fairly severe faults and consequently requires as much help as it can get to maintain structural integrity, and grooves or sharp stiffness transitions are bad with this material.
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Old 17-03-2016, 04:41   #4
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Hi,
The swaging begins near the eye and works from the eye. The dies (a pair are used) have a leading edge which is rounded so makes a gradual decrease of size on the terminal. If the dies are put the wrong way round, i.e. beginning with the non-rounded edge, you will get an abrupt start, which is what I think I am seeing here.
Not good.
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Old 17-03-2016, 07:25   #5
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

As there seems to be some variation in our experiences, I am attaching three images of swages we have here at hand.

Having read the responses above got me second thinking that if you feel the job is not done well, you should ask for it to be corrected. You will not feel good if you go out sailing feeling the terminals are not 100% perfect.

image a - a recent job, 7k Nm on it,
image b - an old one, 50k Nm on it,
image c - riggers error - rolled twice, still was good for one rtw.

So, in our case, the transitions look pretty abrupt too.

Let us know how this story ended up!

barnakiel
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Old 17-03-2016, 08:38   #6
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

you do not state if all the rigging is swaged in a similar manner or just one shroud or stay.


it is normal to see this type of "abrupt" start. I do dont see the problem if the rigging is installed correctly then there should be no pending moments while in service, just straight pull
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Old 17-03-2016, 09:31   #7
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zstine View Post
I just received my new rigging from a respectable builder who's been doing this for decades. The root of the crimp is very abrupt compared to the old swages (see pic 1). When inspected closely, some metal tearing or surface cracks are evident in the transition area at the root of the crimp (see pic 2, not easy to see though). Since this condition extends around the circumference, I'm concerned freeze thaw or corrosion will be exacerbated and quickly weaken the shank of the swage. Is this surface tearing an acceptable / normal condition?

Thanks,
Zach
I work with stainless everyday in my non-marine job and agree with others here that it is probably over rolled in the swage. however, the swage quality looks good. The marks at the end are not acceptable to me but that is nothing that a little time on a scotchbrite wheel won't fix. the Rigger should have polished that out and we wouldn't be having this conversation. imho
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Old 17-03-2016, 09:39   #8
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Have you brought it to the attention of the rigger? Any business can have a bad day. That is what that appears like to me. If he is as respectable as you say, I doubt he would want that to represent his work?
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Old 17-03-2016, 09:50   #9
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Any cracks or folds, even pin holes will likely lead to crevice corrosion. If these are present the swage is unacceptable. If in doubt a solution of iodine and baby oil should highlight any cracks or crevices.
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Old 17-03-2016, 10:16   #10
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Why take a chance? It's always going
to bother you.
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Old 17-03-2016, 10:43   #11
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

The transition is defined by the shape of the die/lead-in transition right? It wont change with that vendor. The metal is hammered/squeezed by rotating opening/closing dies. (if he uses a proper rotary swager)
Barnakiel's pics appear to be done with a simple "squeeze" die. Much inferior to rotary swaging.
Always use a rigger that does Rotary swaging.
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Old 17-03-2016, 11:47   #12
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Change it before it lets you down
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Old 17-03-2016, 13:12   #13
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zstine View Post
I just received my new rigging from a respectable builder who's been doing this for decades. The root of the crimp is very abrupt compared to the old swages (see pic 1). When inspected closely, some metal tearing or surface cracks are evident in the transition area at the root of the crimp (see pic 2, not easy to see though). Since this condition extends around the circumference, I'm concerned freeze thaw or corrosion will be exacerbated and quickly weaken the shank of the swage. Is this surface tearing an acceptable / normal condition?

Thanks,
Zach
That new swage looks like it's been done with a cheap swager. I'd give it the float test. "If it floats it can go on my boat."

We are currently replacing all our standing rigging with staloks. The old swaged rigging is good quality but I have no confidence in the riggers in my area.

I have 3 trades and 3 engineering degrees including a materials background. While it's always less than ideal making metalurgical recommendations on a forum my concerns are:

1) poor surface finish is an indicator that the swage tooling is damaged
2) abrupt changes in section lead to fatigue failures
3) a good swage will always look good
4) poor surface finish is also a reliable proxy for uneven compression and deformation inside the swage at the swage wire interface. This allows moisture to do its evil work and detectability is not possible

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Old 17-03-2016, 13:19   #14
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
One thing you can do is check if (by the markings on the terminal) there is a match with the diameter of the wire. At times, there are troubles where an imperial fitting has been applied onto a metric wire. They differ.

Otherwise the terminal shown is a Hayn which implies top shelf quality and unlikely to be used by a sub prime rigger. Also, it is as a single roll which again shows good craftmanship.

If the rigger has been in the business for a time and if the terminal specs match the wire, I would take it for granted you are dealing with bona fide work and materials.

BTW a transition like this ('abrupt') is not special - I have seen about the same on most terminals we have had.

Assumed innocent.

b.
Disagree. I don't assume a butchered name brand implies quality.

I would not certify that swage for anything other than architectural use.

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Old 17-03-2016, 13:51   #15
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Re: New Swage - metal torn at root - Acceptable?

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Disagree. I don't assume a butchered name brand implies quality.

I would not certify that swage for anything other than architectural use.

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I would have to agree. I was waiting to get something back on whether he had contacted the rigger and what a reply may be? It could just be an oversight he would make good on. I myself would not except it? Or did I miss a response on the riggers making it right or not?
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