New Sails! Advice Needed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Frankly I think you just need to accept the hole in your sail inventory...

If the 120 high clew is good from say 12-20 (maybe 22) and the sta-sail starts to kick in at 30, then you have two options...

1) smaller Yankee good to further up the wind range at the cost of something at the bottom end, or
2) larger sat-sail to kick in a little earlier (say 25) at the downside of loosing it's value as a true storm sail.

Given the conditions you describe I would probably go with a slightly smaller Yankee knowing I was giving up the light air ability since you don't seem to need it much, and add a Code 1 to cover your lighter air days. This would give you (upwind) a C1 for anything up to ~10-15kn, the Yankee for 10-25, and the sta-sail for anything above 25. Since the boat is set up as a cutter, you can also fly the sta with the code and the Yankee for more drive when conditions warrant.

I love Solent rigs and think they are a great idea, but I am not sure about the value in adding on to a cutter. Certainly if I was going to do so I would buy a third set of furling gear as part of the process.

As for sail material... Just because a sail material works for RTW races doesn't mean it will last you very long. Those sails need to be proof against stretch, but they see relatively no time in the sun, mold isn't a problem and after the race they are thrown in the trash. It isn't quite the same thing.

On the other hand high tech sails are lighter, and thinner. Which means they are smaller rolls on the front of the boat and infuse less drag. If I could swing the price I would certainly go with 3di cruising taffeta everywhere since they are the most durable sails I have seen. But again if it is a priority issue the sta-sail would be the last place I put money.

That actually seems like a good idea -- make the "extra" sail for the lighter side, not the heavier.


As to sail material -- the quote I got for 3Di was more than $50,000 -- plus 20% VAT. The carbon sails from Sanders half that. So even if the 3Di sails lasted double -- I would only just break even (actually not even that, because of the time value of money). And I keep getting more and more glowing reviews of the Sanders loft.

So I've ruled out 3Di. I've also ruled out any woven sailcloth. So that means the choice boils down to -- molded? Or panel-built laminated sails? Carbon? Or Vectran? The sailmaker swears by the carbon. One guy on here went with the molded carbon string sails for his Oyster 66 and is very happy with them. But the sailmaker says that the panel sails are more durable. Cost is the same. Bainbridge makes the carbon/vectran laminate for the panel sails -- made in the U.S. with no China involved. In an autoclave, so far more resistant to delamination, mold, etc., than older types of laminate -- if we can believe the sailmaker.

I guess I'm going to need to talk to another sailmaker or two in any case before making a final decision.

[giant]

I would be leaning towards panels for durability.

The 3Di that I have seen was stiff somewhat like soft cardboard, not particulary durable and didn't seem to hold shape in light air.

[UNCIVILIZED]

As another resource for much less biased 2nd opinions on the various cloth choices on the table, as well as feedback on the sailmakers. Perhaps you can have a few short chats with the professional gents who look after boats in size ranges akin to yours. Or close, say upper 40-somethings, to lower 70-somethings.
Although at this point I imagine that you're a bit information overloaded. However, said lads, likely have a lot of sea miles. As well as real world time evaluating the options you're currently entertaining.

[mikereed100]

Dockhead,

I apologize if this has already been brought up in this thread, but have you looked at HPV? Vectran/polyester woven cloth.
http://www.china-sail-factory.com/Do...est%202012.pdf

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

As another resource for much less biased 2nd opinions on the various cloth choices on the table, as well as feedback on the sailmakers. Perhaps you can have a few short chats with the professional gents who look after boats in size ranges akin to yours. Or close, say upper 40-somethings, to lower 70-somethings.
Although at this point I imagine that you're a bit information overloaded. However, said lads, likely have a lot of sea miles. As well as real world time evaluating the options you're currently entertaining.

It's a very good idea -- thanks. I'll do just that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Dockhead,

I apologize if this has already been brought up in this thread, but have you looked at HPV? Vectran/polyester woven cloth.
http://www.china-sail-factory.com/Do...est%202012.pdf

I have heard such conflicting things about these woven sails with partial Vectran content, like Hydranet, Vektron, etc.

Some people say they are the worst of both worlds -- same expense of laminate and same stretch as Dacron. Others love them. I'm not very keen to take the risk.

[savoir]

No Vectran in Hydranet

[Yachticus]

Just a thought on your headsails and sun protection.
invariably the sun protection strip adds weight - distorts shape and is generally a crap idea.

some of the lofts now are producing a hauled up cover that has laces allowing you to completely cover the sail including the clew.
typically hauled up on a lightweight halyard to the hounds.

I know doyle are doing them - probably many others.

we find is a serious good improvement on previous practice

cheers

[Dockhead]

Update -- so I'm just about to pull the trigger on this expensive purchase.

The sails I am going to order are five:

* In-mast furling main with straight leech and short vertical battens

* 120% high clewed yankee

* staysail

* high aspect blade jib

* cruising code zero


I've definitely decided to go with laminate rather than any kind of woven sails. The leading proposal suggests using a vectran/carbon laminate made by Bainbridge in the U.S. in an autoclave, supposedly immune to mildew and delamination, and tri-radial cut. The cost rather exceeds the cost of my first house.

There is an alternative proposal which is quite a bit less expensive. The cloth is a Dimension Poliant cruising laminate called "Flex Ultra" which has some Vectran, but which is primarily Dacron, as far as I can tell. The sails will be cross cut, not radial -- which accounts for a good bit of the difference in cost, I guess.

Any final thoughts? DP versus Bainbridge, for example?

[svTOTEM]

No laminate cloth is immune to delamination! As for mildew, any laminate with taffeta resists mildewing because of added chemicals. In time these chemicals leech out and mildewing is common - more so in tropics environment.


I searched Bainbridge website didn't find carbon/vectran cloth, but perhaps it's the carbon/Technora? Dimension/Polyants Ultra Flex is Dacron / Dyneema (not Vectran).


Your quest seems to be low stretch at any cost, if so then Bainbridge option is better simply because carbon has the lower stretch of the two (and no creep); and radial construction all but eliminated bias loading (except of course in flogging/slatting conditions) that can cause permanent distortion.


I suspect the dimension cloth is a little tougher, just by nature of fibers used. As it's fill oriented, so crosscut construction, there is inherently much bias loading. The diagonal yarns will address some of this, but loads more than 10 degrees off axis quickly results in bias load stretch - and under enough load permanent distortion. Compared to Hydanet, which also uses Dacron / Dyneema, but is woven not a laminate as this cloth is, I suspect this has slightly lower stretch because being laminated eliminates crimp (constructional stretch). However, laminates can not stand up to wovens for durability - no matter what the glossy brochure says.


To each there own - but I cannot fathom putting such expensive materials into an in-mast furling main that requires a flatter than ideal shape (to enable furling) and supports no roach profile. Performance is compromised. Low stretch is good to prevent the sail from getting so full that furling becomes very difficult. No stretch cloth seems overkill and the lamination may well suffer on the furler. As a 3 dimensional sail furls onto a 2 dimensional foil so many wrinkles are compressed within the role - not something that laminate cloth will take well over the long haul.

[savoir]

You are buying a $20 solution to a $10 problem.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by svTOTEM

No laminate cloth is immune to delamination! As for mildew, any laminate with taffeta resists mildewing because of added chemicals. In time these chemicals leech out and mildewing is common - more so in tropics environment.


I searched Bainbridge website didn't find carbon/vectran cloth, but perhaps it's the carbon/Technora? Dimension/Polyants Ultra Flex is Dacron / Dyneema (not Vectran).


Your quest seems to be low stretch at any cost, if so then Bainbridge option is better simply because carbon has the lower stretch of the two (and no creep); and radial construction all but eliminated bias loading (except of course in flogging/slatting conditions) that can cause permanent distortion.


I suspect the dimension cloth is a little tougher, just by nature of fibers used. As it's fill oriented, so crosscut construction, there is inherently much bias loading. The diagonal yarns will address some of this, but loads more than 10 degrees off axis quickly results in bias load stretch - and under enough load permanent distortion. Compared to Hydanet, which also uses Dacron / Dyneema, but is woven not a laminate as this cloth is, I suspect this has slightly lower stretch because being laminated eliminates crimp (constructional stretch). However, laminates can not stand up to wovens for durability - no matter what the glossy brochure says.


To each there own - but I cannot fathom putting such expensive materials into an in-mast furling main that requires a flatter than ideal shape (to enable furling) and supports no roach profile. Performance is compromised. Low stretch is good to prevent the sail from getting so full that furling becomes very difficult. No stretch cloth seems overkill and the lamination may well suffer on the furler. As a 3 dimensional sail furls onto a 2 dimensional foil so many wrinkles are compressed within the role - not something that laminate cloth will take well over the long haul.

Thanks -- very useful and interesting.

The reason why I am going with laminate is the same reason nearly everyone with 50 foot + performance-ish boats does these days -- it's the size of the sails and the loads on them, that and weight. Dacron sails just don't keep an acceptable shape when you get to this size, especially up here with all of our strong weather (we sail in 20 knots + as much as 50% of the time). Besides that, Dacron sails of this size are really hard to lift and carry and flake (not that you do it that much with an all furling rig, but still).

It's a strong argument for a ketch rig, by the way, on boats this size.

But laminate sails, when well made for the purpose, do fine on in-mast furlers. They are, as you say, cut quite flat. The big difference to Dacron is that they stay flat, so they actually work better with in-mast furlers than Dacron does.

Boats like mine are designed from the keel up for in-mast furling with a high aspect rig, and the high aspect ratio partially makes up for the loss of roach. Besides that, they have fairly small mainsails and big, powerful headsails. Virtually all high-end European large cruising boats have been designed like this already for a couple of decades -- Oysters, HR, Contest, Discovery -- all have in-mast furling unless special ordered otherwise. Over 70', in-boom furling.

OK, so back to the question at hand --

One sailmaker is advising me that the DP cruising laminate is more durable than the Bainbridge autoclaved laminate, and recommends cross cut rather than radial construction. It only needs taffeta on one side like that and is much cheaper. He really likes the DP Flex Ultra, and he says that laminate sails with taffeta on both sides don't hold up as well, and are much heavier.

He makes some good arguments, but I am skeptical about cross cut sails for such big sails carrying such huge loads -- for the reasons you state. So I am wavering about this.

But I like the second sailmaker -- he comes highly recommended from a good friend of mine who is very knowledgeable, and he seems to say a lot of really sensible things. He says that if I really want a radial cut sail, he can make it out of DP DYS, but that it will be just as heavy as the cross cut one because of taffeta on both sides. And it will cost 20% more.

He says that the DP laminates are better; that the autoclave doesn't really help that much -- that the pressure of lamination is the main thing, and that there DP is the best.

What do y'all think? Anyone have an opinion about DP vs Bainbridge?

Or on any of the rest of this? I'm struggling a bit and must make a decision this week.

[Kenomac]

My advise. Put your money into the less expensive Chinese laminate sails and then spend the remaining 25k-30k on diesel. What ever happened with the used Oyster storm blade? Did you get a refund, did it fit? Something I can use?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

My advise. Put your money into the less expensive Chinese laminate sails and then spend the remaining 25k-30k on diesel. What ever happened with the used Oyster storm blade? Did you get a refund, did it fit? Something I can use?

Hi Ken:

Thanks for that.

The Oyster used storm blade was fictional -- never existed as far as I can tell. The supplier -- Westaway Sails; Sail Exchange; other names -- is notorious for taking people's money, sending out the wrong sail, then giving a runaround for months before the money is refunded -- apparently how they fund their cash flow. I did get my money back but only after a lot of aggravation.

I think Chinese Dacron sails might make sense for some people, especially smaller boats, but when you get to laminate, the cost of labor saved becomes less and less as a percentage of the cost of the sail, so it makes less and less sense.

With large, high performance, laminate sails, you really want the maker available where you are, it seems to me -- maybe not absolutely necessary, but many advantages.

Therefore, I'm willing to pay for this. I am talking to two different local sailmakers, both of whom are hugely impressive. I don't mind paying some extra to have access to their expertise. I would not save much -- maybe 10% or maximum 20% -- by going with Chinese made sails. With this large investment, not worth it to me to take such a crap shoot with sailmakers I will never see.

For others, YMMV. For a smaller Dacron sail, the savings can be 50%, which is already kind of a different deal. Someone advised me that China Sail Factory, if represented by a really good local guy, can be good, but the same guy told me he spent months getting problems sorted out, since the sails weren't made locally.

[Dockhead]

And there's Dimension Poliant DYS laminate, made with Dyneema. Same price as the carbon/technora. Anyone have experience of this cloth?

This is what they DP propaganda says about it:

"Dimension-Polyant DYS®

DYS® is the ultimate laminate for radial cruising sails. It consists of very low stretch Dyneema® yarns laminated between thin polyester protective taffetas. Dyneema® has amazing flex life and good UV resistance. It also has lower stretch than Aramids, such as Kevlar®."