Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-10-2014, 14:42   #91
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Is it a flat cut sta-sail for upwind work or a reacher for off the wind? For the flat cut I wouldn't worry about the blade since you could just switch to the sta-sail. For a reacher I might be tempted...

But it all has to work together as a system. Having multiple sails for the same wind range and point of sail is just needlessly complicated. Having a big gap in your inventory means you will either be pushing one sail to much or under powered. But on a cruising boat there may not be a good way to swap sails so a compromise is needed.

What I would love to see is...

1) a current sail inventory with expected wind range for each sail, and condition. Along with how each sail will be set (forstay furler, cutter furler, Solent stay furler).
2) the same for any proposed sail.


Below is what's called a sail crossover chart. I don't think you need something this complicated or formal, but it's good to know how your existing sails would fit into something like this. Since it allows you to see where your current inventory is lacking. And while you probably won't bother getting a jib top and a sta-sail, it's good to know where your sails are designed for.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	79.7 KB
ID:	90109  
__________________

__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2014, 16:54   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,057
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

That chart is sooooo complex that I'm getting a headache thinking about all the possibilities.

I reckon all you need is two jibs, would you believe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a big one and a little one ? I never use Yankees and they predate hula hoops by quite a few years . Add a staysail and you're set.

Make the smaller jib out of cross cut Hydranet which is the kind of thing it's designed for. Dacron would also work but you don't seem too keen on the stuff.
__________________

__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2014, 15:49   #93
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,740
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Is it a flat cut sta-sail for upwind work or a reacher for off the wind? For the flat cut I wouldn't worry about the blade since you could just switch to the sta-sail. For a reacher I might be tempted...

But it all has to work together as a system. Having multiple sails for the same wind range and point of sail is just needlessly complicated. Having a big gap in your inventory means you will either be pushing one sail to much or under powered. But on a cruising boat there may not be a good way to swap sails so a compromise is needed.

What I would love to see is...

1) a current sail inventory with expected wind range for each sail, and condition. Along with how each sail will be set (forstay furler, cutter furler, Solent stay furler).
2) the same for any proposed sail.


Below is what's called a sail crossover chart. I don't think you need something this complicated or formal, but it's good to know how your existing sails would fit into something like this. Since it allows you to see where your current inventory is lacking. And while you probably won't bother getting a jib top and a sta-sail, it's good to know where your sails are designed for.
Well, it's a typical cutter setup, with staysail about 30% of the area of the principle headsail. The staysail is designed to double as as a storm jib with very heavy sailcloth and mounted on a heavy duty furler (same as the principle headsail -- S400 Selden Furlex). It cannot drive the boat without the principle headsail in less than 30 knots of wind. So it's no substitute of any kind for a blade. The blade is exactly intended to fill the hole between 20 and 30 knots true.

As to the crossover charts and sail inventories-- irrelevant on large cruising boats. The sails are too large to carry "inventories" of them. You have to make do with what is on your furlers, with the occasional addition of a light wind sail or something -- every extra sail is a whole thing and there's no way to have more than one or two max beyond the white sails on your furlers.

If you find yourself sailing outside the range of your white sails, you put on the engine. That's the reality of life on a large cruising boat. So the main thing is to get the white sails right. And choose the one or two extra sails with extreme care. Particularly considering how expensive sails of this size are.

All that being said, I am strongly attracted to the idea of the blade jib, made out of carbon fiber laminate panels. Sheeted inside the shrouds. Seems like it would be simply gorgeous upwind in a F6 - F7, which is sooo common here.

Those of you sailing in U.S. waters will find it somewhat hard to imagine the conditions at this latitude, in Atlantic Europe above 50N. If F3 -- F4 is the usual weather in the Gulf of Mexico or lower part of Atlantic U.S. coasts, then here it's F5 to F6. It blows and blows. And we sail in F7 and F8 -- otherwise you'd be home much of the time. Above F5, your normal headsail won't be working at its best. There are just so many days when you'd like to have a different sail area up.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2014, 22:37   #94
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Dockhead,

I raced a J-130 that came from Northern Ireland. The boat came with two mainsails, a full hoist one, and one made just from the first reef up. Weirdest thing I ever saw, but the owner told us he swapped mains since for half the year he couldn't hoist it more anyway. I do get where you are coming from... And we keep contemplating ordering a short hoist main for the trimaran in Jamaica, during the windy season it's always reefed anyway....


What's the design range of the headsail?

In my eyes in order of importance are the following...

1) good condition headsail
2) good condition main
3) 90-145 AWA reacher on a furler
4) sta-sail
5) deep runner, as deep as reasonable for the boat
6) upwind code... These tend to top out in AWS quickly

in an area with light wind I would change the order a lot... To something like 1,2,5,6,3,4 since AWS and AWA change so much faster in light air. And trying to sail downwind in light air with the wrong sail is the very definition of pointless when you keep out sailing the wind.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2014, 03:06   #95
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,740
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Dockhead,

I raced a J-130 that came from Northern Ireland. The boat came with two mainsails, a full hoist one, and one made just from the first reef up. Weirdest thing I ever saw, but the owner told us he swapped mains since for half the year he couldn't hoist it more anyway. I do get where you are coming from... And we keep contemplating ordering a short hoist main for the trimaran in Jamaica, during the windy season it's always reefed anyway....


What's the design range of the headsail?

In my eyes in order of importance are the following...

1) good condition headsail
2) good condition main
3) 90-145 AWA reacher on a furler
4) sta-sail
5) deep runner, as deep as reasonable for the boat
6) upwind code... These tend to top out in AWS quickly

in an area with light wind I would change the order a lot... To something like 1,2,5,6,3,4 since AWS and AWA change so much faster in light air. And trying to sail downwind in light air with the wrong sail is the very definition of pointless when you keep out sailing the wind.
As I mentioned, the yankee (120% and high clew) is good unreefed up to about 20 knots true. The new carbon fiber one (if that's what I end up going with) will be the same size, but it might work up to a bit higher wind speeds since it will be flatter and smoother than the old one.

The staysail is used in combination with the yankee unless it's being used as a storm jib. In former times, I used it almost exclusively when reaching, but more recently I figured out how to make it work better upwind by barber-hauling it. I have poled it out with a boathook while running, but that was just kind of for fun.

I use the yankee successfully even dead downwind without a pole, sometimes rolling it in slightly. Goosewinged with the main preventered out on the other side. But if there's less than about 15 knots of true wind, this doesn't really produce much drive, so the motor goes on. Without any light downwind sail, sailing downwind often involves motorsailing. On the other hand, up here above 50N, we have a large percentage of days with 20 knots of wind and more, and sailing dead downwind with the yankee alone works great if there is a lot of wind. You want really 30 knots or more for best results. You only have to start reefing at about 40 knots, when using just the yankee downwind, and it's a great ride.

So my main goal with new sails is better performance upwind. That is the highest priority by far. Making miles upwind in strong conditions has been a real problem for me, not solveable with the motor (although pinching up to 25 AWA or so and motorsailing is one tactic which works pretty well in some conditions).

This is not generally a problem for people at lower latitudes and/or for people who don't do a lot of longer distance sailing. That is because sustained periods of 20+ knots of true wind are rare at lower latitudes -- just wait for the wind to change or fall off. But up here, it can blow 20 (or 30) knots for a month at a time, and from exactly the same direction, and if you have to go some place, you often can't just wait around for the wind to change. So this need for upwind ability may be specific to this cruising area and style. Or for people who have to regularly get up a coast against a prevailing wind, say.

The second priority is to gain some sailing ability in lighter winds, especially downwind. For that, I have gotten a lot of credible advice in favor of a cruising Code 0 on a furler as the most versatile tool for this job. This is not as crucial as the upwind part, because light wind can be solved with the motor, but I strongly prefer to sail over motoring, so would be really nice.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 03:11   #96
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Post Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

dockhead,
I know that this isn't what you want to hear, but realistically the only way you're going to get better performance over a wider range of wind angles & speeds, is to both; setup the boat for sail changes, and get used to the idea of getting out of the cockpit to wrestle with sails when the weather's unpleasant.

I hear what you're saying about both sail size & wind speed, BTDT. Aside from the fact that my last residence of 15 years was @ 49 degrees N. And for half of the year we'd get a 50kt - 70+kt storm every 3 days (literally).

As an example of handling sails on big boats, on a delivery one night, with just me (and the autopilot) on deck (and a BADLY sprained ankle, like couldn't walk sprained).
I changed down to the #3 on a 68' Swan. Including going down belowdecks twice, once for the cars & sheets for the #3, & the other for the sail itself. Then did the change, put the #2 properly into it's bag, hauled it aft, & lashed it to the windward rail.
So it is possible to change sails on BIG boats, even with headfoils only, & shorthanded.

As to your vessel, here's another, viable option (as were my others):
- Keep something resembling the Yankee, or slightly bigger on the outer furler. Preferably something with a lower clew than @ present, that current HIGH tack & clew give up a LOT of sail area.

- Move the #2 furler, from the Staysail, to a Solent Position & keep a 90% - 105% Blade on it. It may overlap the spar a couple of feet, but that certainly wont hurt anything. You & the sailmaker will have to optimize it's size.
This does of course mean adding a Solent stay, & halyard to go with such. Plus adding some more foil length(s) to your Staysail furler when you move it.

- Make the Staysail stay removable, unless the spar really needs it for support. And convert the Staysail to hanks.
If you like, you can leave the Staysail hanked on, on deck (in a bag), unless your boat routinely takes green water over it's bows.
***Also, Given that the Staysail is likely about 250 sqft (or less) I doubt that maneuvering it on deck in it's bag should present issue. And if you use sew on hanks, that will make it easy to convert it back should you so choose (although knock on hanks can be removed with a Dremel or pair of bolt cutters easily enough).

Saga Yachts kind of introduced/re-introduced the Solent concept in the US a couple of decades back, & it's REAL popular along with their yachts. And below's the setup on a yacht not quite your size. SAGA 48 Sail Plan

When it comes to choices in cloth, the bottom line realistically should be - who will stand behind their product & the lifespan which they promise for their sail(s).
That said, as an example, it pay at the very least, to look at who's sails have the best track record for doing recent non-stop, round the world races. Especially bigger boats, like the 60's. As if the sails on them can survive 30,000 miles of that kind of abuse, sans sailmaker support...

There are plenty of examples out there, I just happened to have this reference handy as it's relevant to boats close to my size range. http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/1...x?news_id=5557

For off the wind work, if your new jib on the outer furler's not big enough, then it's time to choose one of the earlier discussed options for such.

Also, for other resources & opinions, it'd be smart to run your ideas & items which need solving past other big boat owners, & on forums for the same. For example S&S Swan Association Forum
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 14:22   #97
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,740
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
dockhead,
I know that this isn't what you want to hear, but realistically the only way you're going to get better performance over a wider range of wind angles & speeds, is to both; setup the boat for sail changes, and get used to the idea of getting out of the cockpit to wrestle with sails when the weather's unpleasant.

I hear what you're saying about both sail size & wind speed, BTDT. Aside from the fact that my last residence of 15 years was @ 49 degrees N. And for half of the year we'd get a 50kt - 70+kt storm every 3 days (literally).

As an example of handling sails on big boats, on a delivery one night, with just me (and the autopilot) on deck (and a BADLY sprained ankle, like couldn't walk sprained).
I changed down to the #3 on a 68' Swan. Including going down belowdecks twice, once for the cars & sheets for the #3, & the other for the sail itself. Then did the change, put the #2 properly into it's bag, hauled it aft, & lashed it to the windward rail.
So it is possible to change sails on BIG boats, even with headfoils only, & shorthanded.

As to your vessel, here's another, viable option (as were my others):
- Keep something resembling the Yankee, or slightly bigger on the outer furler. Preferably something with a lower clew than @ present, that current HIGH tack & clew give up a LOT of sail area.

- Move the #2 furler, from the Staysail, to a Solent Position & keep a 90% - 105% Blade on it. It may overlap the spar a couple of feet, but that certainly wont hurt anything. You & the sailmaker will have to optimize it's size.
This does of course mean adding a Solent stay, & halyard to go with such. Plus adding some more foil length(s) to your Staysail furler when you move it.

- Make the Staysail stay removable, unless the spar really needs it for support. And convert the Staysail to hanks.
If you like, you can leave the Staysail hanked on, on deck (in a bag), unless your boat routinely takes green water over it's bows.
***Also, Given that the Staysail is likely about 250 sqft (or less) I doubt that maneuvering it on deck in it's bag should present issue. And if you use sew on hanks, that will make it easy to convert it back should you so choose (although knock on hanks can be removed with a Dremel or pair of bolt cutters easily enough).

Saga Yachts kind of introduced/re-introduced the Solent concept in the US a couple of decades back, & it's REAL popular along with their yachts. And below's the setup on a yacht not quite your size. SAGA 48 Sail Plan

When it comes to choices in cloth, the bottom line realistically should be - who will stand behind their product & the lifespan which they promise for their sail(s).
That said, as an example, it pay at the very least, to look at who's sails have the best track record for doing recent non-stop, round the world races. Especially bigger boats, like the 60's. As if the sails on them can survive 30,000 miles of that kind of abuse, sans sailmaker support...

There are plenty of examples out there, I just happened to have this reference handy as it's relevant to boats close to my size range. http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/1...x?news_id=5557

For off the wind work, if your new jib on the outer furler's not big enough, then it's time to choose one of the earlier discussed options for such.

Also, for other resources & opinions, it'd be smart to run your ideas & items which need solving past other big boat owners, & on forums for the same. For example S&S Swan Association Forum
Hmm, extremely interesting. And thanks for the link! I'll go have a trawl around the Swan forum; great idea!

I wouldn't be against a solent stay, but I'm finding it hard to see the logic -- if it's not as horrible changing sails as I think -- and doing it single handed on 68' Swan is extremely impressive!!! -- then my idea about changing back and forth between the blade and the yankee in the forestay furler becomes even more valid than it was before, and so even less important to put the blade on a separate furler.

Then I can save a separate furler for the Code 0 -- and for this, I won't need a full-blown Solent stail, but can use one of those self-furlers on a sprit.

In any case, I don't want to get rid of the staysail furler -- it is incredibly valuable to have the staysail on tap from the cockpit -- giving an instant storm sail without faffing around on the foredeck in a blow.

The only problem is if I use the staysail track for the blade -- then when the blade is up, the staysail is out of commission until I can go forward to change the sheet over.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 14:33   #98
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

The only problem is if I use the staysail track for the blade -- then when the blade is up, the staysail is out of commission until I can go forward to change the sheet over.
Are you sure? I've been on a boat that had those really wide sheet blocks on the track (like 2" wide). He ran two sheets through it where one would always be lazy. It worked fine. No tangles or anything.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 15:33   #99
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Here's an idea that'll more or less, let you have it all.

Put the Yankee & Blades on the furlers as I described.
Keep the Staysail hanked onto it's stay with; sheets attached, halyard attached & taut, a downhaul attached to the halyard.

By having the halyard & the downhaul on the Staysail led back to the cockpit, it's ready to go at any time.
You might want to have a custom bag made for it which resembles a top opening mainsail cover. Only on top, have say a 2" wide strip of Velcro running the length of the bag. So that the sail can be ready to go, while being "bagged" down to the deck. And due to the Velcro, all you need to do is crank up the halyard, & the bag will peel open all on it's own (add a few piston hanks if you really want it to stay shut).

What's the reason you're so adamant about having the staysail on a furler, it's not as if it's a big sail to handle, even if it's blowing? And on something that size, I can't see the self tacking thing being a big assist. Besides which, to cut a headsail to be self tacking you lose a LOT of power & efficiency.
I don't know the exact numbers, but would guess that it's in the range of 20% - 25%, depending on sail size & what you're comparing it to. If you put it up against something with even 5% - 10% overlap it loses big time (heck, so's the case against something which just sheets to the shrouds).
Not to mention how much it's sheeting angles & trimming options are restricted downwind (when compared to a jib with an adjustable car/lead setup).

As to "Big Boat" forums, I'd reckon that there are other ones. Both for big production boat, and semi-custom to fully custom big boats. Oyster, Camper-Nicholson, Hallberg-Rassy... there's a multiplicity of them in Europe.
That, and it's a guess, but odds are there are also forums for the guys who run & look after said boats. Because in reality, when you get to 50', it's pretty much the norm to have a guy looking after her full time, or close to it. There's just too much which needs doing maintenance & TLC wise. Heck, a fair number of 40-something footers fall into this category.

FYI on changing jibs that big in a breeze, doing it solo takes; a lot of time, energy, endurance, muscle, technique, & thinking/planning ahead. There's not a lot about it to recommend. Even doing it on a 50'er is a beast if it's blowing. And it's no picnic on a 40-something either, albeit it's a lot easier.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 15:40   #100
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Good point. The catch as to whether or not such will work, I think, depends upon how the sheets for the Staysail are led & the hardware's setup. As some self tackers have sheeting systems which dominate both their hardware, as well as 90% of the foredeck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Are you sure? I've been on a boat that had those really wide sheet blocks on the track (like 2" wide). He ran two sheets through it where one would always be lazy. It worked fine. No tangles or anything.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 15:50   #101
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Here's an afterthought I'd be curious to hear your response to.

What if in the Summer time (light air season), you put the Yankee on the outer furler, the Blade on a Solent furler, & the Staysail on a stay.
Then, come Winter (the windy season), you put the Blade on the outer furler, & the Staysail on the Solent furler.

Plus, of course, you can add whatever light air sail you wish on it's own system.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 16:19   #102
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Here's an afterthought I'd be curious to hear your response to.

What if in the Summer time (light air season), you put the Yankee on the outer furler, the Blade on a Solent furler, & the Staysail on a stay.
Then, come Winter (the windy season), you put the Blade on the outer furler, & the Staysail on the Solent furler.

Plus, of course, you can add whatever light air sail you wish on it's own system.
Would switching sails work? The solent stay is at a steeper angle than the headstay, so sheeting angle would be different, right? If the blade is cut to be on a steep stay and is put on the headstay, the clew would be too close to the deck and the car would need to be way forward?

I suppose I've seen some boats with the solent stay parallel to the headstay, come to think of it, but many are not. On my boat, a solent stay would be steeper in order to miss all the anchoring gear and tie into the bulkhead while still being close enough to the mast head to not need runners.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 16:34   #103
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Frankly I think you just need to accept the hole in your sail inventory...

If the 120 high clew is good from say 12-20 (maybe 22) and the sta-sail starts to kick in at 30, then you have two options...

1) smaller Yankee good to further up the wind range at the cost of something at the bottom end, or
2) larger sat-sail to kick in a little earlier (say 25) at the downside of loosing it's value as a true storm sail.

Given the conditions you describe I would probably go with a slightly smaller Yankee knowing I was giving up the light air ability since you don't seem to need it much, and add a Code 1 to cover your lighter air days. This would give you (upwind) a C1 for anything up to ~10-15kn, the Yankee for 10-25, and the sta-sail for anything above 25. Since the boat is set up as a cutter, you can also fly the sta with the code and the Yankee for more drive when conditions warrant.

I love Solent rigs and think they are a great idea, but I am not sure about the value in adding on to a cutter. Certainly if I was going to do so I would buy a third set of furling gear as part of the process.

As for sail material... Just because a sail material works for RTW races doesn't mean it will last you very long. Those sails need to be proof against stretch, but they see relatively no time in the sun, mold isn't a problem and after the race they are thrown in the trash. It isn't quite the same thing.

On the other hand high tech sails are lighter, and thinner. Which means they are smaller rolls on the front of the boat and infuse less drag. If I could swing the price I would certainly go with 3di cruising taffeta everywhere since they are the most durable sails I have seen. But again if it is a priority issue the sta-sail would be the last place I put money.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-10-2014, 00:56   #104
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,740
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
What's the reason you're so adamant about having the staysail on a furler, it's not as if it's a big sail to handle, even if it's blowing?
I'm not; I would be perfectly happy if the boat had been built with a hank-on staysail. I just don't see any point in fixing what ain't broke -- rerig the inner forestay -- for what? To save the cost of a furler? But I'll spend that and more rerigging it. The sail trims fine if barber-hauled, which isn't any more trouble than handling conventional sheets. And in really hairy weather, self-tacking IS an asset -- the whole rig becomes self-tacking and you don't have to leave the helm for anything, not even to handle sheets. This is really good when things are really hairy and you're strapped in tight in the cockpit. So I just don't see any reason to re-rig it.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-10-2014, 01:08   #105
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,740
Re: New Sails! Advice Needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Here's an idea that'll more or less, let you have it all.

Put the Yankee & Blades on the furlers as I described.
Keep the Staysail hanked onto it's stay with; sheets attached, halyard attached & taut, a downhaul attached to the halyard.

By having the halyard & the downhaul on the Staysail led back to the cockpit, it's ready to go at any time.
You might want to have a custom bag made for it which resembles a top opening mainsail cover. Only on top, have say a 2" wide strip of Velcro running the length of the bag. So that the sail can be ready to go, while being "bagged" down to the deck. And due to the Velcro, all you need to do is crank up the halyard, & the bag will peel open all on it's own (add a few piston hanks if you really want it to stay shut).

What's the reason you're so adamant about having the staysail on a furler, it's not as if it's a big sail to handle, even if it's blowing? And on something that size, I can't see the self tacking thing being a big assist. Besides which, to cut a headsail to be self tacking you lose a LOT of power & efficiency.
I don't know the exact numbers, but would guess that it's in the range of 20% - 25%, depending on sail size & what you're comparing it to. If you put it up against something with even 5% - 10% overlap it loses big time (heck, so's the case against something which just sheets to the shrouds).
Not to mention how much it's sheeting angles & trimming options are restricted downwind (when compared to a jib with an adjustable car/lead setup).

As to "Big Boat" forums, I'd reckon that there are other ones. Both for big production boat, and semi-custom to fully custom big boats. Oyster, Camper-Nicholson, Hallberg-Rassy... there's a multiplicity of them in Europe.
That, and it's a guess, but odds are there are also forums for the guys who run & look after said boats. Because in reality, when you get to 50', it's pretty much the norm to have a guy looking after her full time, or close to it. There's just too much which needs doing maintenance & TLC wise. Heck, a fair number of 40-something footers fall into this category.

FYI on changing jibs that big in a breeze, doing it solo takes; a lot of time, energy, endurance, muscle, technique, & thinking/planning ahead. There's not a lot about it to recommend. Even doing it on a 50'er is a beast if it's blowing. And it's no picnic on a 40-something either, albeit it's a lot easier.

OK, boiling this down, if we put aside the staysail issue, I think you're supporting the combination of blade plus yankee, but you're recommending that each have its own furler. Although you told me that you've changed much bigger headsails alone and with a sprained ankle, I think you're saying that I really don't want to be changing headsails -- they both need their own furler.

There are a few disadvantages to Solent stays:

1. A lot of extra windage -- a whole nother not just forestay but furled sail up there.

2. Hard to balance tension between the two forestays, and even with perfect balance, you need twice the backstay tension.

3. You can't tack the sail which is on the outer forestay without rolling it up.

But they have a huge advantage:

Both sails ready all the time -- change from one to the other in under a minute and without even going to the foredeck.

I guess I'll need to talk to a rigger about it, then. I had my boat completely rerigged last year in Cowes, by Spencer Rigging, the guys who do all the Discovery yachts and lots of famous race boats. Surprisingly, they did a poor job, hurried and sloppy, so I'm going to have to find someone else.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sails

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Sails, Sails and More Sails Slainte40 Classifieds Archive 4 23-04-2011 12:59
For Sale: Sails, Sails, Sails - Sydney, Australia ribbony Classifieds Archive 6 22-02-2010 20:28
Sails, Sails, Sails... for sale? Jack Long General Sailing Forum 5 14-08-2008 00:41



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.