New Sails? a Chaotic Hell

[JOHNMARDALL]

There are some things that don't lend themselves to on-line buying and sails are one such product group. Get recommendations from local sailors on a local sailmaker and go to that person or company. A good sailmaker will talk to you about how you intend to use the boat and will also come to the boat to measure it and check for any deviations from standard. He or she will also discuss all of the issues with you, answer all of your questions and check the sails after delivery, while the boat is sailing, then make adjustments if any are necessary.
On-line, you risk buying the proverbial pig-in-a- poke (meat animal that cannot be inspected because it is in a sack)

Good luck

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Inc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

I have your same requirements, DH, with some more emphasis on upwind courses (in the Med), and the need of a multi-purpose 95% (700sqft) hanked blade jib to be hoisted alone, thus it must be with a good handling (no dacron no hydranet).

I will put it down with 25/28kns TWS (meaning that she can sail at 55/60°AWA -or less?- with one reefed main and AWS in the low 30s, likely in short guts of wind even in summertime here).

Ok, laminated, with Vectran, possibly with no/internal taffettà . I will get in touch with KEMP (yes, living in the Solent has some distinctive advantages :-)

PS i dont mind of light airs performance. As a liveaboard i can wait...

Later on, i will consider a jib 4 on staysail, as planning for Greece/meltemi

Yes, my deck gear is swan-like, i rerigged completely (soft staysail) and reviewed mast in depth..

Yes, I see, very similar to my requirements.

I care very much about getting upwind in stronger conditions. Because that's where the motor doesn't save you.

Light wind performance was not that important to me -- because the motor DOES save you in light wind. My boat is pretty good in light wind anyway -- efficient hull form, long waterline (47'), fairly light displacement/LWL.

I strongly support your idea about a blade jib. This is the killer app for this problem. I guess hank on is the best way to do it, although I don't have experience handling a hank-on jib on a boat of this size so I'm not quite sure whether I appreciate the handling issues. I have had terrific results from my blade jib which actually has a wider ranger of usable conditions than the normal 120% yankee. Upwind, it produces as much drive as the yankee even in very light wind. Also, it backwinds the mainsail much less than the yankee does, especially important when the main is reefed.

I also support your idea about a staysail. This is the key complement to the blade jib -- it's what allows you to not reef the blade. Staysail can definitely be hanked on (mine is on a roller furler, but I've never ever reefed it). If your boat was not originally rigged for a staysail, then pay attention to supporting the mast and providing inner forestay tension. You will need running backstays or at least jumper stays. Tacking the principle headsail around the inner forestay has not been a problem at all for me, but you should be sure that you don't have anything which generates high friction, on the inner forestay.

Another thing -- for getting upwind in strong weather, do everything you possibly can to reduce windage. Don't put up dodgers, solar panels, arches, or any of the other crap which cruisers hang all over their boats, keep your decks clear, and make sure you can get your dinghy out of the wind. Just as a point of theory (since none of us is going to change the rig), a shorter, more compact rig is better for this task.

[TheThunderbird]

NAuta 54 is a true cutter.

Staysail is supported through the hull, and by running, non-structural, backstays.

There is also a babystay, typical of that period

Staysail was wired, we changed it to spectra and soft shackles (brass hooks would chafe spectra)


My old genoa 3 gets down in a bang, with AP into the wind.

Problem is that it is a mountain by size. Difficult to size in by hands.

I sail with dinghy below deck, but keep the bimini out with flexible panels 2mm thick.
Dodger is rounded, low, minimal, and honestly a plus in dire times.
She is rock solid when upbeating, just need Good sails :-)

I have written to Kemp, they look like using Dimension Polyant... yet which fabric i don't know. I hope they may have a Rep in Malta

Boat was due to be named TheThunderbird, and natives' culture still resonates in there.... sure my sailmaker must be smoking peyote for trueful inspiration in design

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I guess hank on is the best way to do it, although I don't have experience handling a hank-on jib on a boat of this size so I'm not quite sure whether I appreciate the handling issues.

With a yacht of your size a watch of 4 ideally. Beating to windward if the helmsman is kind he will luff up which takes the loads out of the sail so its easier. One on the wheel and watching for MoB, one at the mast and two to pull the sail down and stuff it into a bag quickly before it goes over the side. New sail dragged up through the forehatch and tied on, old sail down the hatch hopefully without catching a wave over the bow. Find the 3 corners that hopefully have been kept at the top of the sail bag and tied through with the sail bag pull cord. Pray the corners are marked in pen with "clew, head and tack" because it will all go wrong especially at night with tired crew if not. Tie sheets on, attach tack and halyard whilst sitting on sail so it doesn't take off. Hoist quickly. Recover drenched crew from bow. Stick kettle on and watch windy thing that was previously rising quickly with strengthing wind now drop as the squall goes through and the skipper calls for the Genoa to be hoisted again Repeat hourly.

Oh and those nice new crispy sails won't be after being treated like this for a few weeks.

I was young and fit then, now I have furling sails operated like you from the cockpit.

[TheThunderbird]

For general information...

Both KEMP and a local sail-maker are pushing for wowen dacron as a more robust dependable solution. Importantly.... softer for handling, and LIGHTER too, if double taffettà is factored in.

As to Kemp (they use DP...), Hydranet is infinitely superior...as such, the only real choice would be between a cross-cut vs radial cut (but with too many sewings...)

Also, claim is that after hoisting down the blade jib (65sqm) a staysail of 25sqm is perfect... no need for a smaller jib on forestay

[Pete7]

I think you will something like Hydranet or Vectran which DP also make due to the size. A friend has a Hydranet genoa from Kemps and its a beautiful sail. Sadly it was nearly double the price for us.

Pete

[Kestrahl]

Maybe they are a bit biased towards dacron. Definitely not lighter for the same performance. The cruise laminates vary quite a lot, but generally speaking they all perform better than any dacron for the same weight. The taffetas can vary from 80grms, 40grms and liteskin 10grms. The handling can also vary from Dimension Polyants DC which used to be rock hard. To the Bainbridge SCL which our mainsail is made from and is soft and easy to handle.
That said I'll be replacing our mainsail with quality dacron shortly due to mold and UV damage in a high humidity tropical climate.
We do a lot of Hydra-net sails, the cross-cut version has very little dyneema content and doesn't offer any performance advantage over quality dacron in the testing graphs i've seen, it only offers better tear resistance. The radial version has a lot more dyneema content and is definitely a step up from cross-cut dacron.

[TheThunderbird]

Radial cut requires quite (too) much sewing, which makes it difficult to do any repair later

But KEMP reports that radial Hydranet is so much better than basic H. Stronger snd more stsbke dimensionally

Maybe, the way to go in radial Hydranet with a cross cut shape?

How will you have your main?

[Kestrahl]

Radial cutting doesn't make it difficult to do repairs. But they can have problems with the radial seams chafing going in and out of a furling mast.
Fabric designed to be radial cut has more fibers and strength down the roll instead of across it, so you can't cross cut a fabric built for radial cutting.
Cross cut Hydra-net has a ribstop of dyneema which gives it much greater tear strength but doesn't have enough dyneema to make much difference to stretch resistance. Radial hydra-net has a much higher dyneema content.

[Pete7]

Kemps said the same thing to me about Hydranet. Its brilliant in a radial design but doesn't work well in a cross cut sail. To overcome this a second variety of Hydranet was developed but its not as good. Instead Kemps recommended Vectran for a cross cut sail because it has greater resistance to stretch in both axis.

The decision then is whether to go with Vectran or a cruising laminate, bet there isn't much price difference.

Pete

[TheThunderbird]

Vectran is usually lraised, as a way between PET-PEN fibers.

But it is not vlear to me whether Vectran means a woven or laminated sail.

So we have Hydranet tri for triradial cut (expensive, for the many sewings..)

Vectran.... made in some (unknown to me) way, as DH and many recommend
Laminate, of dome entry level (low performance cruisers) but the risk is of having some old too-glued, taffeta-ed, heavy, prone to delamination laminated

I'd like to avoid expensive laminates..

[Pete7]

Can you get to the London Boatshow which is about to start?

Pete



http://londonboatshow.com/Exhibiting...-5444A5D97CF6}

[UNCIVILIZED]

For the most part when Vectran is mentioned in sailing circles it implies using tows of the material in laminated sails. However there is a sailcloth called Vectron which employs woven Vectran in it's makeup. IIRC it's made by Hood.
Plus there are some other, more proprietary sails/cloths which intermix Vectran with other high modulus fibers like Spectra. And some of these fabrics are similar in construction to Hydranet, where the Vectran is there to assist the parent fabric in resisting stretch or creep.

Take an hour & Bing or Google the various sailcloths, it's rather informative. And hopefully it'll assist you in resetting your internal filters so that you can know when the sailmaker's attempting to blow smoke up your rear/is operating out of his depth.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

For the most part when Vectran is mentioned in sailing circles it implies using tows of the material in laminated sails. However there is a sailcloth called Vectron which employs woven Vectran in it's makeup. IIRC it's made by Hood.
Plus there are some other, more proprietary sails/cloths which intermix Vectran with other high modulus fibers like Spectra. And some of these fabrics are similar in construction to Hydranet, where the Vectran is there to assist the parent fabric in resisting stretch or creep.

Take an hour & Bing or Google the various sailcloths, it's rather informative. And hopefully it'll assist you in resetting your internal filters so that you can know when the sailmaker's attempting to blow smoke up your rear/is operating out of his depth.

Exactly.

Vektron, I think, is what was being discussed:

Vektron | HOOD Sailmakers

This has been around longer than Hydranet.

In my humble opinion, these exotic woven materials were designed when laminates still had big problems with mildew and delamination for cruising use. Laminate construction techniques have come a long ways since then, and I hardly see the point in woven materials which cost nearly the same as a good laminate.

Laminates are based on mylar films, not woven cloth, and so are much more resistant to stretch than even exotic woven materials. That's because woven materials have a crimp in them which can be pulled out under enough stress, which makes the material stretch. Mylar film has no crimp in it and has practically zero stretch right up to its breaking load. On top of that, laminate sails don't need any Dacron in the structural parts, so unlike Hydranet and Vektron, they are 100% exotic fiber except for the non-structural taffeta. Mine are carbon/Technora.

Having tried laminate sails now, I'll never go back to woven.

[Jim Cate]

DH, while I can see the point of your post, I have this suspicion that if one uses slab reefing for the mainsail instead of furling, there is a serious risk of compromising the mylar base film by crimping and creasing when the clew reefing line is pulled home. In short handed cruising boats (at least in MY short handed cruising boats!) there is often a big mess of cloth just under the reef clew, and it gets mashed... especially at night when reefing in a hurry.

Hydranet Radial is stiff and awkward to handle, but so far has not suffered from this sort of abuse.

Comments?

Jim