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Old 09-07-2016, 11:46   #1
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New Mast Questions

so im at the point in this build where i have to commit to the rig. too many interior projects on hold because i dont know exactly what my rig geometry will be. sent off a request to ballenger spars and got a quote, now i need another pair(s) of eyes to check me and make sure im not missing any opportunities at this early stage.

the boat is 40', 9ton, deck-stepped, solent-rigged, short-handed cruiser. i value simple and utilitarian. planning dux standing rigging w/coligo terminals. composite chains. removable inner stay at the single spreaders, single line reefing at the mast. the foredeck on furlers including sprit-flown gennacker.

ballenger will install mast head and deck light conduits, 4 sheave head box plus spinny crane. im looking for insight as to the miscellany, nice-to-haves or wish-i-dids. crowd sourcing lessons learned from hardened cruisers please.

thanks so much...
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Old 09-07-2016, 14:46   #2
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Re: New Mast Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwilk37 View Post
-----composite chains. -----
Sorry I can't answer any of your questions, but I'm curious - what are "composite chains"?
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Old 09-07-2016, 15:17   #3
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Re: New Mast Questions

integral chain plates. loops of carbon uni tape over a pin and carried down both sides of the hull/bulkhead etc. no leaks, corrosion, dissimilar metals etc. grossly over-lammed so a lifetime part at this point. easy to do now as part of the build, not always so easy as a retrofit.
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Old 09-07-2016, 15:20   #4
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Re: New Mast Questions

Seems to me you might want the solent further up than the spreaders...?
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Old 09-07-2016, 16:00   #5
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Re: New Mast Questions

I have only bought one mast, from Sparcraft. At least from them, I found their conduits undersized and their wiring totally substandard. They did not understand tinned wire, and they were only interested in running one (common) neutral.

Have your conduits up sized, and buy your own nav lights, spreader lights, and VHF antenna. Also your wire.

Make sure you have no mismatched fittings between metric and imperial fittings.

If you are planning on some type of boom preventer or boom brake, get an extra heavy duty bale as an attachment point.

Get everything approved in writing before you finalize the order. This took me several iterations of emails.

Don't be afraid to check EVERY detail. My first drawings sent to me omitted the deck ring and had the wrong mast step fittings. Okay, you don't have those, but check every single item on the parts list to make sure that they haven't forgotten something.

Best of luck!

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Old 09-07-2016, 16:50   #6
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Re: New Mast Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwilk37 View Post
so im at the point in this build where i have to commit to the rig. too many interior projects on hold because i dont know exactly what my rig geometry will be. sent off a request to ballenger spars and got a quote, now i need another pair(s) of eyes to check me and make sure im not missing any opportunities at this early stage.

the boat is 40', 9ton, deck-stepped, solent-rigged, short-handed cruiser. i value simple and utilitarian. planning dux standing rigging w/coligo terminals. composite chains. removable inner stay at the single spreaders, single line reefing at the mast. the foredeck on furlers including sprit-flown gennacker.

ballenger will install mast head and deck light conduits, 4 sheave head box plus spinny crane. im looking for insight as to the miscellany, nice-to-haves or wish-i-dids. crowd sourcing lessons learned from hardened cruisers please.

thanks so much...

It's smart to consider what you want in a rig now, as you're doing. Since it costs little to tweak things, before they're built, vs. having regrets about it's features later.
And to some degree I'm not sure how much info to provide, or questions to ask, as the spec sheet for a rig, can & should, cover many pages. With the list of options & features for same, is several times that size.

Another big component to figure out now, is the number of winches & where they'll be, in terms of handling halyards, & reefing. Ditto on; line clutches/stoppers, conventional cleats, turning blocks, reefing setup, lines led aft, etc.

And if you give us more spec's on the boat, the proposed rig & sailplan, it will allows for a lot more in the way of suggestions. The more details which you can provide, the better.


That said, here are some thinks:
- A high SADR (Sail Area Displacement Ratio) is Really nice to have, especially as cruising boats tend to run heavy & also be under-canvassed. Which, if you want the boat to sail well, generally means having a spar who's length (height from deck) is 1.3x-1.4x LOA of the boat.
Light air performance ain't just for racers. Ditto on upwind performance.

Or, if a taller spar is ruled out ONLY due to stablity considerations (which are easily solvable at the building stage). Then look into a bow sprit/longer sprit, & a longer boom. As well as a roachy, full battened main. Or, much as I hate them, a Boomkin.

Some of my stressing the point of a tall spar, & lots of canvas, is that you mention a single spreader rig. Which, on a 40' boat, it's tough to have a tall enough single spreader spar from which to hang sufficient canvas, unless the mast tube is the size of a Sequoia, section wise. With all of the negative aspects which accompany such a (needlessly) heavy mast.

- I'm not a huge fan of composite chainplates, unless there's any easy way to add conventional ones later. As if composite ones get damaged, I gather they're pretty tough to repair. Being that they're integral to the boat, & that fixing them would likely entail a major structural redo of the boat's structure.

Also, Titanium chainplates only cost marginally more than Stainless ones. While not having corrosion issues, & they're have much better strength, lifespan, etc.


- It's nice to have more than 4 halyards. With them being almost exclusively Internal. For example;
1 Main, plus a spare sheave on the aft side of the mast. Generally for a Topping Lift or spare Main halyard. Or as a Trysail halyard, seperate from the Main halyard.
1 Jib
1 Solent
2 Spinnaker's; one of which can possibly double as a Spare Jib halyard, or as a full height, free flying Staysail halyard.
Both can be used for various light air sails, that are flown in front of the Headstay.
1 Staysail, which also doubles as a Topping Lift.
2nd Topping Lift (optional) for 2nd Spin/Whisker Pole to run downwind, wing & wing.

That probably sound like a lot to some, but it's much easier to set up the spar for them now vs. later. And the usefulness of most of them should be pretty apparent.


Not to sound overly critical, but here are a few key questions based on the provided info. And I ask, in attempts to help you fully think through your rig setup desires:
~ What purpose does the inner forestay half way up the mast serve? Since, really, it's too short to hang any sails on.
~ Why single line reefing? A 2-line setup performs much better, especially on big boats, & is also more reliable.
Also, go with sheaves in the boom's outboard end, so that you can run the reefing lines internally. And spec the boom so that it has 1-2 more sheaves than you ever forsee needing. As you can't add them later.
~ Your thoughts on/plans for using conventional compression tubes, with doublers, & tang bolts are?
~ Plans for mast mounted; Lights, Radar, Instruments, Antennas, etc., are? As such will determine conduit sizes & locations.
~ How did you got a quote for the rig, when much of it's details have yet to be determined? Or so it sounds.
~ And are your choices experience based, coming from tens of thousands of ocean miles, or what you've read that works (in theory)? As, frankly, much of the info out there on rig setups, comes out of the backside of a male bovine.


The bottom line is that the best way to design this, is to have built things many times over in your mind, & then on paper. Right down to the last bolt & rivet. Based on lots of experience sailing, as well as having built/spec'd & repaired many rigs, rigging, & sails.
And once you have it on paper, run it by several (each) professional; Riggers, Sailmakers, & Spar builders, for critiquing.
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Old 09-07-2016, 17:01   #7
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Re: New Mast Questions

You need to pre-load the dux to set the splices and it should get covered, via wonder something or just served with seine twine.
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Old 09-07-2016, 19:04   #8
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Re: New Mast Questions

Why single line reefing at the mast?? Way easier and less work with conventional rigged reefing. Just drop the sail, hook the tack reef point in the horns, rehoist the sale then deal with the clew. You'll be pulling on line forever with single line reefing. If you were leading the lines aft to the cockpit might consider single line but even then would go with double line. On much smaller boats have found single line reefing to be a PITA.

Whether you are going with internal or external halyards would make the provision to have a permanently rigged external halyard. Saved me having to go to the mast head half way to the Marquesas. That would require three rows across of mast head sheaves for external halyards or two for internal.

If you are going run a code zero, you'll need two jib halyards.

Concur that a staysail stay only to the single spreader would be way short. Halfway between spreader and masthead would be better. That will require some way to stabilize the mast with running backs or jumpers.

I'm all for a tall stick providing for lots of sail areabut a stick 1.4 times overall length would be 56'. Would make early reefing a necessity, might give you bridge height issues, and would definitely want a NA to check and be sure that the boat would't be unstable in winds over 50k. Have his thew spreaders in the water with bare poles on a boat with a mast 1.15 the length
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:07   #9
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Re: New Mast Questions

A stick that's 1.35x LOA works fine as long as the boat has a reasonable righting moment (RM). The calc's aren't hard, & you can do rough ones pretty easily, just using a boat's basic spec's. Usually the results from such are close enough to tell you all you need to know.
The thing is, with a decent RM, you still won't really need to reef particularly early. And that kind of sail carrying ablity really aids your windward performance, particularly in a blow.

But the big reason for so much canvas is light air performance. As in my experience, you need an SADR of 25 or better, in order to do well when the breeze is in the single digits. Which is tough to achieve with a short spar. You can do with a bit less sail area, but with an SADR of under 20, you'll be running the engine too much. For my taste anyway.

Even my sweet sailing (ancient) Ranger 33', with her svelte 5' draft, had a spar that was 1.3x LOA... to catch the light SoCal breezes. But in winds of 5-7kts & less, to do more than 2kts, she needed her engine. And her SADR was 21+/- with a 135% genoa, & my gear onboard.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:23   #10
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Re: New Mast Questions

I don't know if you are going to design the spar or leave the design to a rigger? guess is the latest.....
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Old 10-07-2016, 11:07   #11
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Re: New Mast Questions

Radar? Secondary VHF whip?
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