New halyard questions

[SV Sedna]

Time for all new halyards. I will be using Samson XLS Extra to do the job with new Wichard shackles. I have been looking for good instructions and videos to work with to do the splices. A core to core splice is new to me but I have done quite a few double braid splices with good results.

The Samson and NE Ropes method both seem to indicate a fully tucked cover could be a problem. You end up cutting the cover, cross stitching and whipping it to the rope. I was hoping for a nice clean finish. Any thoughts?

I did run across this European company and their slice for a dyneema core with a nicely tucked cover. Would this be suitable for the Samson XLS Extra with a blended dyneema core? Seems cleaner than the other methods. Are the splices for full and blended dyneema cores different?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGbCr7hnGX8

Also what is feeling about the using a larger loop so the shackle is removable instead of a permanent splice around the bail? See item B in the link below.

Finishing - Splicing

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by SV Sedna

Time for all new halyards. I will be using Samson XLS Extra to do the job with new Wichard shackles. I have been looking for good instructions and videos to work with to do the splices. A core to core splice is new to me but I have done quite a few double braid splices with good results.

The Samson and NE Ropes method both seem to indicate a fully tucked cover could be a problem. You end up cutting the cover, cross stitching and whipping it to the rope. I was hoping for a nice clean finish. Any thoughts?

How difficult this is to do depends a LOT on what kind of line you're talking about. For some it takes a PHd, & others not a lot (to learn & do them).

I did run across this European company and their slice for a dyneema core with a nicely tucked cover. Would this be suitable for the Samson XLS Extra with a blended dyneema core? Seems cleaner than the other methods. Are the splices for full and blended dyneema cores different?

Splices for lines with fully high modulus cores, and blended cores are different, & not interchangeable. Primarily due to the fact that in a line with a high modulus core, it's the core which is taking all of the load.

Also what is feeling about the using a larger loop so the shackle is removable instead of a permanent splice around the bail? See item B in the link below.

This is known as a "luggage tag splice", and is generally reserved for hi-modulus lines, or lines with high modulus cores.

Finishing - Splicing

Here's a few more resources for you, aside from the line manufacturers websites, & youtube.
Brion's a Master Rigger, & no doubt you've seen a few articles by him in sailing magazines. Brion Toss Yacht Riggers, Sailboat Rigging If in doubt, call them up, & tell them what you're learning & what you need help with, so that they can recommend specific information/learning guides for you.

And if you want a 2nd opinion, or Brion's crew's just too busy to splice your stuff, have a look here APS: Rigging and Splicing Services

You may have already figured this out, but before you get really good at splicing double braids & exotics, you're going to wind up making several splices, & then tossing them out. It's just part of the normal learning curve.
Probably the simplest is to learn how to core splice a high-modulus cored line. And given the lifespan of Spectra, IMO it makes the most sense to use.

[thinwater]

There's no good reason not to simply tie the line to the headboard with a halyard knot or similar. Done in seconds.

Halyards are not sized for strength, they are sized for stretch. The knot does not create a weak spot, as failure is always due to chafe.

[Benz]

I've done a few dozen core-dependent double-braid splices, and it is unbelievably difficult, with either V-100 or Validator II, to bury the cover at the conclusion of the splice. What I do (and what NER and Samson both recommend IIRC), is put a whipping at the throat of the splice, and hide the end of the cover under that. With determination, I expect you can torture the cover in there a couple of strands at a time, but the hole in the cover that it all goes into gets pretty stretched (see the strands in the splice on the video). As far as making the shackle removable by girth-hitching it to the splice, that's a matter of how often you want to take the shacke off!
I disagree with Tom Pattey up there--you should always splice line unless a compelling reason (chafe is not one--you should set up your rigging so there is no chafe) requires a knot instead.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Benz, yes, they can be difficult. And there are a few tricks. One of them being to get a splicing wand Brion Toss Yacht Riggers, Sailboat Rigging::Splicing Gear or a couple of them, in different sizes. Along with some extra cord loops for the ends.

[thinwater]

Why do I need a compelling reason to knot? I think you need a compelling reason to splice. Many times we do. Yes, I know common splices.

--high mod core.
--slippery material.
--high load factor.
--snag problems.
--chain to rope.
--handling problems.

[Benz]

^^^^ Tom, not only are properly-done splices stronger than knots, they are more elegant. I am fond of strength and elegance--perhaps having neither of those in myself, I like to have them in a boat. Believe me, wherever knots are a better option than splices I use knots, but greatly prefer to splice when possible.
Ben

[UNCIVILIZED]

Actually, on a lot of boats, halyards are sized for strength (and I've seen a good share of lines parted right at the knot). With most lines (and especially Spectra) you don't want to go above 25% of their breaking strength. And tying a knot in a high modulus line takes a LOT more strength out of it than tying a knot in polyester or nylon. So with the diameter of halyards being downsized, tying knots in them takes them a lot closer to their breaking strength, relatively speaking.

Originally Posted by thinwater

There's no good reason not to simply tie the line to the headboard with a halyard knot or similar. Done in seconds.

Halyards are not sized for strength, they are sized for stretch. The knot does not create a weak spot, as failure is always due to chafe.

Besides, it may sound corny, but good rope work calms me down & gives me that feeling of a smile in my heart. Even if I'm simply putting a loop for a cleat into some old 3-strand. Kind of like when I'm doing cabinetry, & I get a joint cut perfectly on the first pass.
Call it a Zen thing, but isn't everything on a boat connected. So if a splice on a halyard's smoothly done, then in some way, it adds to the boat.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Actually, on a lot of boats, halyards are sized for strength (and I've seen a good share of lines parted right at the knot). With most lines (and especially Spectra) you don't want to go above 25% of their breaking strength. And tying a knot in a high modulus line takes a LOT more strength out of it than tying a knot in polyester or nylon. So with the diameter of halyards being downsized, tying knots in them takes them a lot closer to their breaking strength, relatively speaking.

While there may be some halyards sized for strength they never should be. Even a very small dyneema line likely has a high enough breaking strength to break deck gear on even a 40' boat.

Normally for stretch control you try to keep loads low, but how low depends on the stretch characteristics of the specific line you are using.

[UNCIVILIZED]

With the new(er) high strength, low stretch, fibers, a lot more halyards are being sized for strength. Since you can size for strength, & not really lose anything in terms of stretch characteristics. The halyards can be/are being downsized, as the weight savings aloft can be significant.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

^^^^ Tom, not only are properly-done splices stronger than knots, they are more elegant. I am fond of strength and elegance--perhaps having neither of those in myself, I like to have them in a boat. Believe me, wherever knots are a better option than splices I use knots, but greatly prefer to splice when possible.
Ben

^^ Fair enough. And I can relate to the "lack of elegance" comparison!

On a more global note, and I do not mean to appear overly critical, the use of names is a sensitive issue with some people. I'm not overly concerned myself, but still I chose not to use my name in forums. In fact, if you follow the link, below, to my blog, you will find my name and contact information without difficulty.

This is just a comment for everyone to consider.

a. I'm not Tom.
b. If a person's name is not listed in the signature or in the post it is poor form to use it in a response. If a person chooses not to release their name to the internet bots by using an alias, that intention should always be honored. Most posters--myself included--will communicate very freely via private message, but open forums are a different matter.

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by Benz

^^^^ Tom, not only are properly-done splices stronger than knots, they are more elegant. I am fond of strength and elegance--perhaps having neither of those in myself, I like to have them in a boat. Believe me, wherever knots are a better option than splices I use knots, but greatly prefer to splice when possible.
Ben

Is it elegant to splice an expensive lethal weapon on the end of a halyard?? Shackles are expensive and can do serious damage when they get loose and flail about. They aren't needed on most sails either for attaching halyards or sheets. A knot is very elegant, weighs nothing, doesn't cost a fortune, and won't open your head up if you let the halyard go. Strength isn't an issue as most boat's halyards are way way oversize to be easy to hand. Have done thousands of miles of voyaging without the use of shackles and have had no issues. Oh, forgot, it's really easy to change the wear point on a sheet or halyard just by tying the knot a little farther down the line and/or cutting off a foot or two of the line as necessary. That's been a big plus on long passages with sails poled out. The pole wears on the sheets if the chafe point isn't constantly adjusted.

Make an exception for spinnaker halyard and sheets as quick release on that sail can be a safety issue.