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Old 16-11-2015, 15:39   #1
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New Genoa

This has most likely been dealt with heaps of times but here it is again.

I am in the process of ordering a new 135% genoa for our Bavaria 38. The boat is 2004 and being an Elvstrom/Sobstad sail, the existing genoa must be about 11 years old. I know precious little about sail construction but I understand it is a laminated sail. It was getting a little baggy but it's shape is not the concern, it still pulled well and set well. The leech tension needed more than it should have to quieten the sail but it's main problem is delamination. I can poke my finger through cracks near the leech and sail tape is not going to cut it any more for holding it together. It seems to be a composite of laminate and dacron sail. The thicker laminated portion near the leech and into the uv strip is cracked and weathered but the lighter "dacron" portion of the sail near the luff appears in very good condition still.

My big concerns are:
What weight of Dacron should I expect to be used in the making of this sail? and
Is a crosscut design adequate for cruising needs? or
Should I specify a radial cut? or
What about Tape Drive sails?
What sort of life expectation is reasonable for high UV latitudes? (NZ) and of course the price.
What should I expect to pay?
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Old 16-11-2015, 17:42   #2
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New Genoa

I contacted a couple of well know sail makers and listened to them as I have next to no knowledge myself
I know your not in the US, but I went with Mack Sails for my cruising head sails, I am sure there are a couple of very good lofts there too.
My sails are original to the boat and are 27 yrs old and are really not in bad shape

I'd expect about as many opinions on sails as anchors, maybe more?


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Old 16-11-2015, 21:58   #3
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Re: New Genoa

Both North Sails and Doyle Sails in NZ are really good. Are you anywhere near them? Agree with a64pilot - know zip about sail making. For all our new sails over the years; Genoa, Staysail, Main, Gennaker, we left the design and the making to the (reputable) sail maker. Really good ones are worth their weight in gold.
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Old 16-11-2015, 22:50   #4
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Re: New Genoa

I have just had a new genoa made by Doyles Auk.... talked through everything with Andy Pilcher... very happy. They have a Whangarei man...
PM for more info ( would have to hunt out the paper work)..
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Old 17-11-2015, 19:24   #5
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Re: New Genoa

More info.... Andy originally quoted for a 145% 7. oz High modulus cross cut dacron genoa.
After some discussion we settled on 140% 8.3 oz based on where I sail as it was considered that it would be a better sail when partially furled .

Cost was about NZ$4.5k GST free with 15% winter discount.

Hope this helps,

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Old 18-11-2015, 04:40   #6
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Re: New Genoa

I have had a quote back for my Genoa from one loft.

For a radial cut with 8oz cruise laminate and weatherstrip $3800+GST. Area is just under 40 square meters.

For a crosscut 8oz crosscut dacron same size just under $3100. There was no mention of leech or foot tension lines or trimming wools, or sail bag, are they a given or should I enquire about them?

I really like the idea of sails that don't lose their shape, should I go with the laminate radial or crosscut dacron for longevity?

The other loft up here will get back to me on Friday. El Pingino how many sqm in your genoa? Also what does "high modulus" mean?

I checked out your photos of Chile, they are awesome, well done. Fantastic looking scenery- not sure I could handle the cold though.

Thanks all for taking time to give your thoughts.
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Old 18-11-2015, 06:10   #7
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Re: New Genoa

I'm showing my ignorance here, but I was under the impression for a roller furling cruising sail that a laminate may not be a good choice?

I didn't inquire as to sail bag, leech line etc., assumed that of course was part of the deal, hopefully I won't be surprised, I should have asked
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Old 18-11-2015, 07:10   #8
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Re: New Genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I'm showing my ignorance here, but I was under the impression for a roller furling cruising sail that a laminate may not be a good choice?

I didn't inquire as to sail bag, leech line etc., assumed that of course was part of the deal, hopefully I won't be surprised, I should have asked
Laminate sailcloth has several disadvantages for cruising, but compatibility with roller furling is not one of them. They are thinner than Dacron and roll up more easily, and tighter. This advantage is especially noticeable with roller furling mainsails.

The technology has improved in the last years (new glues; autoclaving) and while the disadvantages for cruising still exist, they have been reduced. If you care much about sail shape, it might be that Dacron sails don't even really last longer, as they will reach an unacceptable shape rather sooner, than the life of good laminate sails. How long they last after getting bagged out may or may not be relevant to you - depends on how important sail shape is to you.

Another factor to consider is size of the boat. Under 10 tons or so, unless you're racing, Dacron does ok, because the forces are small enough not to bag out the Dacron so quickly, as it happens on bigger boats.

There's no one right answer to this question. Dacron is certainly a very practical choice - inexpensive, very easy to repair, durable. But if the OP really loves sailing, or does any racing, he will probably not regret going with laminates. I switched to carbon laminate sails this year, and after 3000 miles, there's not a trace of wear, mildew, etc. The performance of my boat is completely transformed, and it's also simply more fun to sail, because all the controls suddenly have a huge effect. But then again, I have a large boat and sail in windy high latitudes, a combination which is almost impossible for Dacron to deal with. The OP will have his own preferences and set of circumstances, and will have to make his own decision.

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Old 18-11-2015, 07:35   #9
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Re: New Genoa

From the roller furling perspective I was speaking specifically to Mildew, I hate Mildew, I had some on my main and it cleaned up, but I think maybe it gets in the Laminate of a Laminate sail? Of course never leave furled and wet, and I think you don't have an issue?
He and I are both 38' boats, which I believe is sort of on the small end for laminates, I've been led to believe that the bigger the boat / sail, the more laminates make sense, and at some point, maybe around a 30' mono and smaller, they just don't make sense.

But I won't speak to his boat, but Laminate sails on an IP 38 is sort of like road racing slicks on a pick up truck?
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Old 18-11-2015, 07:45   #10
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Re: New Genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
From the roller furling perspective I was speaking specifically to Mildew, I hate Mildew, I had some on my main and it cleaned up, but I think maybe it gets in the Laminate of a Laminate sail? Of course never leave furled and wet, and I think you don't have an issue?
He and I are both 38' boats, which I believe is sort of on the small end for laminates, I've been led to believe that the bigger the boat / sail, the more laminates make sense, and at some point, maybe around a 30' mono and smaller, they just don't make sense.

But I won't speak to his boat, but Laminate sails on an IP 38 is sort of like road racing slicks on a pick up truck?
Yes, I agree with everything in this post. I would not consider laminates on an IP, for the reasons you state. They might or might not make sense for the OP --he's on the edge where diminishing returns kick in. At 30', I agree -- no point at all.

Mildew has been a weakness of laminate sails (along with delamination), but with the new glues and better yet, autoclaving, this problem has been greatly reduced. They are probably still more vulnerable than Dacron, though.

It's a risk for me considering the wet climate I sail in, and considering the fact that I sail in all weather and all seasons, but so far -- knock on wood -- no problems.
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Old 18-11-2015, 08:07   #11
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Re: New Genoa

You might send an email to Dave Benjamin at Island Planet Sails. ( info AT islandplanetsails DOT com ). He was quite helpful walking me through the pros and cons of the different materials and designs available. I purchased a new main from him last year and am very pleased with it. He ships worldwide.
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Old 18-11-2015, 11:17   #12
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Re: New Genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry1 View Post
I have had a quote back for my Genoa from one loft.

For a radial cut with 8oz cruise laminate and weatherstrip $3800+GST. Area is just under 40 square meters.

For a crosscut 8oz crosscut dacron same size just under $3100. There was no mention of leech or foot tension lines or trimming wools, or sail bag, are they a given or should I enquire about them?

I really like the idea of sails that don't lose their shape, should I go with the laminate radial or crosscut dacron for longevity?

The other loft up here will get back to me on Friday. El Pingino how many sqm in your genoa? Also what does "high modulus" mean?

I checked out your photos of Chile, they are awesome, well done. Fantastic looking scenery- not sure I could handle the cold though.

Thanks all for taking time to give your thoughts.
48 sq metres.... I had to look up high modulus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailcloth

Don't take the 'extras' for granted... I bought a sail once in Tauranga and after delivery asked about a sail bag... told it wasn't included in the quote

'I have quoted this sail in top quality 7.3oz High Modulus Dacron, which is a very good material.
The price includes a UV Suncover, Rope Luff, Tell Tales, Sail Numbers and Sail Bag etc, so everything is 100% complete and ready to hoist...
We offer a 24 month warranty on all materials and workmanship, which is valid at any Doyle loft worldwide.'

Hope this helps, thanks for the kind words re my pics.
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