Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-03-2019, 18:50   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 15
Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Recently purchased Leopard 46. Surveyor can eat my.... Im over that... after purchase, discovered mast and forward crossbeam had been replaced. Wont mention names yet. Appears hardware was attached with aluminum rivets instead of SS or monel. Contacted sparcraft, manufacturer of mast, and they said to fix it with SS or Monel rivets... no kidding. I gave them hull ID info and number engraved on mast asking for information on who assembled the mast. They are now ignoring me. So... given this is pretty much a near death experience, I question who I should metaphorically hunt and kill.

Even if the sails were overloaded, is his what would fail first? And would it only partially fail or completely fail? It doesnt make sense. The aluminum rivets are obviously negligent, do they ship masts to service centers without hardware attached or do they have the service centers handle it? Do they provide service centers with the proper rivets and instructions?

I have invoices from company who replaced the mast and crossbeam. So I know definitively who did the work. I can only question why this all came to be as it did.

I consider my self lucky to have personally surveyed things before departing for bluewater sailing. I consider myself negligent for not noticing before signing the dotted line. So dont hammer me on it. It sucks enough as it is.

Stb Cap Shroud




Port Cap Shroud


Crossbeam forestay
__________________

GoingDigital is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 19:26   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Boat: N/M 45
Posts: 255
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Those do not look like structural rivets; are the rivet holes filled with metal, or are they hollow?

And it's a good thing you caught the failure before you loaded the rig up. Crazy...

- rob
__________________

beetle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 19:37   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
Dave_S's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Schionning Waterline 1480
Posts: 1,053
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

I agree, I think that's a job for a structural rivet as beetle has said above, stainless and monel rivets aren't necessarily structural.

Also the bolt above with the nyloc nut is lose or the bolt is not long enough.
__________________
Regards
Dave
Dave_S is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 19:42   #4
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 6,726
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Disappointing that the problem wasn't caught earlier. Did the surveyor actually go up the mast? Surveys often don't include the rigging.

Seems like a good rigger with an air riveter could redo it in a day or twos work.
Paul L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 20:11   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Francisco
Boat: N/M 45
Posts: 255
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

On reflection, that is not a good job for a rivet; it would have been a significantly better engineering approach for low-angle shrouds (cap shroud, possibly headstay) to have used T-terminal backing plates *inside* the spar, held captive with rivets and the backing plate spreads the load across the spar wall instead of applying the load in a shear/tension restrained only by the rivet *heads*.

Ask SparCraft why they did not specify T-terminals. T-terminals are designed to be easily installed with the rig standing and are exactly designed to handle shroud loads.

This is what a T-terminal is:

the mast fitting is a backing plate set inside the mast, held in place by rivets (use SS structural rivets with lots of Lanacote applied):
Shroud Terminal Backing Plates and Retaining Plugs by Hayn Marine

the terminal on the wire is a 'lollipop' fitting that slots in through the mast wall and engages the backing plate, can be installed with rig standing:
Shroud Terminal Backing Plates and Retaining Plugs by Hayn Marine

Why in the world did SparCraft not call for these?

- rob
beetle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 20:18   #6
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 6,726
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
On reflection, that is not a good job for a rivet; it would have been a significantly better engineering approach for low-angle shrouds (cap shroud, possibly headstay) to have used T-terminal backing plates *inside* the spar, held captive with rivets and the backing plate spreads the load across the spar wall instead of applying the load in a shear/tension restrained only by the rivet *heads*.

....
Rob
You are probably right, but if this is the way most Leopard 46s are rigged (ie rivited with the right rivets), then they have enough long distance miles on them to be proven adequate.
Paul L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 20:51   #7
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 112
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

surveyor should be sent notice of lawsuit and mention reckless endangerment. his lack of a good job could be criminsl. also contsct the USCG and ask them for suggestions as it is them thst be pulling your fat out of the fire
wtmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 21:34   #8
Registered User
 
Fore and Aft's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Gympie
Boat: Volkscruiser
Posts: 485
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Wtmf most surveyors I know do not go up the mast, that’s why I recommend getting a rigger to check the rig.
Cheers
Fore and Aft is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 21:45   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Want a B430!
Posts: 1,181
Images: 5
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Looks like a reweld on the mast. Rivers are secondary.

This should have been caught at survey. Or by a buyer.
Tetepare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 22:15   #10
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 5,894
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

I'd want an engineer to check the rivet design. SS rivets are only about 2x as strong as aluminum, which means that even with SS they will be over the allowable working load. The whole design should be re-evaluated before a repair is started.



The failure pattern is also strange. Many of the rivets still have the core in place, meaning only the head came of. Less stressed rivets sometimes failed. And yes, with that many failed the mast should have gone. Weird. Perhaps the fasteners were some horrible knock off crap with no quality control.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 22:28   #11
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,246
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Welcome to the almost useless cruising boat survey. Lesson learned.

No surveyor can check everything in the typical $1000 half day survey. And very few surveyors know much about rigging so they miss more there. If you paid him $3000 to spend several days going over the boat, he would have found more. You get what you pay for.

I expect if you read the surveyor's report carefully, you'll find he's covered himself with plenty of disclaimers.

Shroud attachments should not be riveted on offshore boats - the type of rivet metal doesn't make that much difference. Stainless is stronger, but it corrodes quickly from galvanic corrosion. The best way - since Herreshoff first came up with it - is to use an end threaded rod that passes through the mast. And the mast wall should be reinforced with plates where it passes through the thin aluminum.

Not many builders do it this way because it's expensive - but it's the best.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-03-02 at 1.12.24 AM.png
Views:	622
Size:	298.6 KB
ID:	186935  
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 23:44   #12
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Somewhere in Patagonia
Posts: 4,941
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
Welcome to the almost useless cruising boat survey. Lesson learned.

No surveyor can check everything in the typical $1000 half day survey. And very few surveyors know much about rigging so they miss more there. If you paid him $3000 to spend several days going over the boat, he would have found more. You get what you pay for.

I expect if you read the surveyor's report carefully, you'll find he's covered himself with plenty of disclaimers.

Shroud attachments should not be riveted on offshore boats - the type of rivet metal doesn't make that much difference. Stainless is stronger, but it corrodes quickly from galvanic corrosion. The best way - since Herreshoff first came up with it - is to use an end threaded rod that passes through the mast. And the mast wall should be reinforced with plates where it passes through the thin aluminum.

Not many builders do it this way because it's expensive - but it's the best.
You can retrofit this kit.. mine came from these people The Rig Shop Yacht Riggers | Industrial, Architectural & Composite Rigging | Masts & Spars | Southampton and is on my lowers.

What is missing in the pic is the BG 'compression' slug that fits within the mast and that the bolt passes through....

The OP's photos are beyond scary....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PA200648 (3).jpg
Views:	491
Size:	176.2 KB
ID:	186936  
__________________
Simple Celestial https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5blh1rgvi...ation.pdf?dl=0

A little bit about Chile http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 04:21   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 15
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
On reflection, that is not a good job for a rivet; it would have been a significantly better engineering approach for low-angle shrouds (cap shroud, possibly headstay) to have used T-terminal backing plates *inside* the spar, held captive with rivets and the backing plate spreads the load across the spar wall instead of applying the load in a shear/tension restrained only by the rivet *heads*.

Ask SparCraft why they did not specify T-terminals. T-terminals are designed to be easily installed with the rig standing and are exactly designed to handle shroud loads.

This is what a T-terminal is:

the mast fitting is a backing plate set inside the mast, held in place by rivets (use SS structural rivets with lots of Lanacote applied):
Shroud Terminal Backing Plates and Retaining Plugs by Hayn Marine

the terminal on the wire is a 'lollipop' fitting that slots in through the mast wall and engages the backing plate, can be installed with rig standing:
Shroud Terminal Backing Plates and Retaining Plugs by Hayn Marine

Why in the world did SparCraft not call for these?

- rob
All good questions.... interestingly, my lower shrouds are secured to mast with a T fitting. I assume the top shroud plates are what they specify, since I sent them the picture and they didnt respond with "wtf?". Simply told me to throw in some more rivets. Didnt specify structural or otherwise. Just length and width. Literally.

I actually had the idea of adding a through bolt from one side to the other, which to me seems like a good option working with what Ive got. I really dont want to drop the mast and that could be done with temp shrouds and mast in place.

I dont know... Im still trying to get the stain out of my shorts right now.
GoingDigital is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 04:24   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 15
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
You can retrofit this kit.. mine came from these people The Rig Shop Yacht Riggers | Industrial, Architectural & Composite Rigging | Masts & Spars | Southampton and is on my lowers.

What is missing in the pic is the BG 'compression' slug that fits within the mast and that the bolt passes through....

The OP's photos are beyond scary....
I think Im going to do something exactly like this with the materials at hand. My rigging and fittings are fine, would be a shame to throw it away just to retrofit a new cap shroud fitting...
GoingDigital is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 04:27   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 15
Re: Near Disaster. Whos to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
Welcome to the almost useless cruising boat survey. Lesson learned.

No surveyor can check everything in the typical $1000 half day survey. And very few surveyors know much about rigging so they miss more there. If you paid him $3000 to spend several days going over the boat, he would have found more. You get what you pay for.

I expect if you read the surveyor's report carefully, you'll find he's covered himself with plenty of disclaimers.

Shroud attachments should not be riveted on offshore boats - the type of rivet metal doesn't make that much difference. Stainless is stronger, but it corrodes quickly from galvanic corrosion. The best way - since Herreshoff first came up with it - is to use an end threaded rod that passes through the mast. And the mast wall should be reinforced with plates where it passes through the thin aluminum.

Not many builders do it this way because it's expensive - but it's the best.
Like I said, Im over the miss in the survey. Im not over the fundamental design flaw or whoever put the mast together incorrectly. They could be endangering the lives of many sailors right now, which is the primary reason for me posting this. Im hoping this is a one off screw up on someones end at the service center.

Thats why Im really curious if the plates come attached from sparcraft or if its on the service center to handle it.
__________________

GoingDigital is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scientists blame sun for global warming CaptainK Polar Regions 26 09-03-2019 04:39
Don't Blame Me ! el capitan The Sailor's Confessional 3 19-09-2010 11:19
Boiled Battery - Who's to Blame? gbendaly Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 19 06-04-2009 08:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.