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Old 07-11-2019, 09:42   #1
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My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

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I have gone over the previous applications made by the owners of the same boat, which is a 27 foot albin vega and decided that i can benefit from a removable inner stay. I have a 150% roller furler at the bow, which is convenient for short sails but i am prepping the boat for more challenging conditions. Previously i was avoiding the stronger stuff. Installed reefing system, lazy jacks, better anchorung system etc. which made sailing more fun and interesting for me.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:04   #2
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

https://www.sailrite.com/Albin-Vega-27-Sail-Data normal sail plan
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/vega-27-albin albin vega

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tang that i have used. Installed it using aluminum rivets. I wonder if stainless would have been better. I also realized that some peole prefer cutting a thin slot on the mast and installing it inside. Unassisted climbed the mast and installed it on the outer surface of the mast with pop rivets. It was not easy i have to admit.
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The thick aluminum channel bar accross the chain locker. I made sure its sitting nicely on the edges which is really overbuilt. There is a pine insert glassed in in this section as well.
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finished pruduct. I did few test sails, hositing different sizes of jibs, a storm jib as well. I liked the way it sails, especially windward i can say it sails better since i have a better sail shape , better sheeting angles. One problem is that the forepeak is little tight, the clew of the bigger sails interfere with the forward lower shrouds therefore i need the route the sheets outside of the shrouds and this results with the clew being more outboard.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:55   #3
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

The tang is attached 18 inches below the mast head with the idea of avoiding runners installation. The tack for the stay is also about 18 inches aft of the roller furler.
My 150% on the furler is very old. I am thinking about replacing it with the same size. I would keep the old one and set both genoa on the furler(i have twin groove on the furler and 2 spinnaker pole&related rig) poled out, downwind twin headsail configuration.
I also gave it a try to different twin sail run, using the 100% furling jib and another about the same size on the stay. The wind was light, the going was comfy and nice. I will further test in stronger wind to see how manageble is the roll.
This hank on sail (100 %) and the smaller one that i have checked was borrowed from a friend just to hoist and see.
I have bought one used hank on sail which should arrive in few days. Its a rolly tasker.
Foot 11’6” Luff25’ Leach23’2” that would be the biggest one for the inner stay.
My storm jib is properly sized for the boat according to the sail data luff115feet, foot10 feet, leech 11 ish.
I would like to insert a question here: In a strong blow what circumstances would require you to sail windward? is it something desirable? I read a storm tactic called forereaching which made sense because you may be in and out of the storm quicker compared to other tactics if the velocity is within the capability of our boat and us of course.
In this case, a storm jib/deeply reefed(3rd) would be still too much canvass? If so, what would be the proper head sail? a much smaller storm jib?

Other than that stuff i have an assym. spin and a symmetrical spinnaker so i am covered pretty good running. Windward , i was never satisfied because i had the 150 % furler at the front, the leehelm would feel too much. Especially true if there is a tide against which is the common scenario here in hudson.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:07   #4
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Did you attach the aluminium channel bar (under the deck) to the hull? If not you are pulling the deck from the hull and all forces have to be passed through the hull-deck joint, and that was not designed for those forces.

Another point, in the picture the tang is attached with screws, in your message you mention rivets?
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:47   #5
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormed View Post
Did you attach the aluminium channel bar (under the deck) to the hull? If not you are pulling the deck from the hull and all forces have to be passed through the hull-deck joint, and that was not designed for those forces.

Another point, in the picture the tang is attached with screws, in your message you mention rivets?
Tang picture is not mine, though its the same tang. I installed mine with rivets, no cut on the mast just riveted on the mast forward surface. Tha channel bar is tucked tightly under the hull/deck joint. I will further put some bolts on both side, through the edge of the deck and hull which is a very beefy section, at least 4 cm thick. Also used little bit long hair fiberglass bondo but not actually glassed in or anything.
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Old 07-11-2019, 15:07   #6
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

In answer to your question about having to work to windward in a strong blow...

Imagine you are sailing on Long Island Sound out of Northport, headed to Port Jefferson. A storm blows in with a hefty northerly breeze - perhaps 25 to 30 knots, maybe some rain and lightning to make it interesting. It happens. There is no harbor to duck into to leeward on this stretch of Long Island. You are now on a lee shore, getting blown onto the beach if you can’t work to windward. If you have too much sail up you are going to heel a lot, and so the keel won’t be keeping you from slipping to leeward in towards the beach. If your sails don’t allow you to head up high enough (perhaps because your jib sheet leads have to go outside the shrouds and the tack on your removable headstay is too far aft) you are going to slip to leeward in towards the beach. If you don’t have enough sail up to keep moving forward, your keel won’t provide lift to keep you from sliding to leeward towards the beach. (Even boats that heave-to slip to leeward. It is a maneuver that needs plenty of sea-room to work properly.) If you change the jib leads to go inside the shrouds it may close off the slot between the main and jib too much and make the sails stall- turning them into levers that heel the boat without providing forward force- driving you onto the beach. Boats are a balance of many forces. It would be good for you to get some experience in gentler conditions and find out how your boat behaves before setting up things that not only may not work well, but may not work at all.

Of course, you could always start the engine and just motor to windward. We’ve been situations where the engine by itself was not strong enough to counter the wind and waves, however. Sailboats need to be able to work to windward in just about any conditions.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:49   #7
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Try this instead.



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Old 08-11-2019, 11:59   #8
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledevil View Post
Tang picture is not mine, though its the same tang. I installed mine with rivets, no cut on the mast just riveted on the mast forward surface.
This concerns me. This means the entire tension force of the stay is pulling directly on 8 aluminum rivets. I think in a blow the rivets will fail. Can you find the max recommended working load (tension) for the rivets you used? Then draw a free body diagram of the forces in play, and the answer will be clear. I'll do the math for you, if you can post the data. Working load of the rivets. Angle of stay at the mast. Size of the sail. That should be enough. FWIW, I'm a retired mech eng.

Another way to think of it...is the strength of those 8 rivets equal to the strength of the stay? I think not. Not even close.

Think of it this way...your arrangement has all the force pulling the rivets out, so all the force is on the little lip of the rivet inside the mast, times 8.

If you instead put 2 fittings, one on each side of the mast, so the force pulls sideways against the rivets (sheer), then the force is against the full thickness of the rivet shaft, which is much bigger and can hold more force. And you can double the number of rivets too.

A steel strap around the mast would be best. Nice and wide to distribute the load.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:09   #9
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Rigging Only carries these. Through bolted and a much better way to do it than rivets. Especially if your mast is thin.


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Old 08-11-2019, 18:29   #10
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
In answer to your question about having to work to windward in a strong blow...

Imagine you are sailing on Long Island Sound out of Northport, headed to Port Jefferson. A storm blows in with a hefty northerly breeze - perhaps 25 to 30 knots, maybe some rain and lightning to make it interesting. It happens. There is no harbor to duck into to leeward on this stretch of Long Island. You are now on a lee shore, getting blown onto the beach if you canít work to windward. If you have too much sail up you are going to heel a lot, and so the keel wonít be keeping you from slipping to leeward in towards the beach. If your sails donít allow you to head up high enough (perhaps because your jib sheet leads have to go outside the shrouds and the tack on your removable headstay is too far aft) you are going to slip to leeward in towards the beach. If you donít have enough sail up to keep moving forward, your keel wonít provide lift to keep you from sliding to leeward towards the beach. (Even boats that heave-to slip to leeward. It is a maneuver that needs plenty of sea-room to work properly.) If you change the jib leads to go inside the shrouds it may close off the slot between the main and jib too much and make the sails stall- turning them into levers that heel the boat without providing forward force- driving you onto the beach. Boats are a balance of many forces. It would be good for you to get some experience in gentler conditions and find out how your boat behaves before setting up things that not only may not work well, but may not work at all.

Of course, you could always start the engine and just motor to windward. Weíve been situations where the engine by itself was not strong enough to counter the wind and waves, however. Sailboats need to be able to work to windward in just about any conditions.
Thank you for the detailed information. I had the idea that getting away from the lee shore is what makes windward sailing capability attractive but the tech. stuff like the keel lift etc. was valuable. I agree i need to get to know the boat better and have a much better understanding about how she behaves under variety of conditions and sail configuration. This is actually the driving force behind the time and effort i am putting towards her with this mods and trials.
So as they say: big wind/small sail...Here in Hudson we often sail downwind, since it is a valley and the wind tends to follow the topography and you either have the wind at your nose or your back. Going downwind is fun and coming back up i usually just motor because of the inefficiency of the 150% genoa upwind. Although i have another 100% jib that goes on a furler, i wasn't bothering changing it.
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Old 08-11-2019, 18:38   #11
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
Try this instead.



Thanks. Sorry i am not able to see the tumbnail. Most such mods involves using the bulkhead to tie a rod. In albin vegas case the bulkhead is not really a bulkhead but a small, 2 inch or so fiberglass edge in the shape of a "V" on the Vberth. A thin piece of plywood attached to it with small bolts creating the chain locker. It seemed like a much bigger task to work on the bulkhead and since i have seen few other vega owners went with the aluminum channel bar option inside the anchor lock, it felt ok. I am pretty sure the tang would go belly up much before the deck attachment.
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Old 08-11-2019, 18:51   #12
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
This concerns me. This means the entire tension force of the stay is pulling directly on 8 aluminum rivets. I think in a blow the rivets will fail. Can you find the max recommended working load (tension) for the rivets you used? Then draw a free body diagram of the forces in play, and the answer will be clear. I'll do the math for you, if you can post the data. Working load of the rivets. Angle of stay at the mast. Size of the sail. That should be enough. FWIW, I'm a retired mech eng.

Another way to think of it...is the strength of those 8 rivets equal to the strength of the stay? I think not. Not even close.

Think of it this way...your arrangement has all the force pulling the rivets out, so all the force is on the little lip of the rivet inside the mast, times 8.

If you instead put 2 fittings, one on each side of the mast, so the force pulls sideways against the rivets (sheer), then the force is against the full thickness of the rivet shaft, which is much bigger and can hold more force. And you can double the number of rivets too.

A steel strap around the mast would be best. Nice and wide to distribute the load.
Thanks for helping out. I was always a social studies type of student but gained interest in physics and mechanics later on in my life thanks to the variety of hobbies i took up. I understand the vertical pull vs horizontal pull and i must agree that i am not 100% confident with those rivets. The strength specifications was not listed on the packaging or on the website but quick google search shows the similar pop rivets " has a shear strength of 310lbs and a tensile strength of 500lbs."
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Old 08-11-2019, 19:00   #13
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

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Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
Rigging Only carries these. Through bolted and a much better way to do it than rivets. Especially if your mast is thin.


Thanks, i have checked the major sources for a better tang and scared away by the high prices. A slightly better tangs are over $300...
To tell you the truth, i did not even considered the through bolt option because i wasn't sure where would be attachment point up on the mast. After climbing up, realized that the logical spot was within the close proximity of the shrouds through bolts on the mast. So, i wish i would have gone that route because i wouldn't be drilling another hole.But being anxious about finishing the project i went ahead and installed what i have on hand.
So if it turns out that my installation is wacky, i would be willing to figure out a better approach ,since i have high hopes .
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Old 08-11-2019, 19:27   #14
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

PM me for a PDF or give me a day or so to figure out how to send it. Or look in my gallery



You essentially need to transfer the tack to the hull, not the deck.



I have a "slutter" set up on my Pearson that is as in my posts .Had it up in over 60 knots and no issues. Bat sails better in 30 kts with slutter storm jib and two reefs than in 15 knots ad full main and 130 genoa.



You're on the right track but need to beef up the gear mountings.


Also look at Marjah's "Sailing theory and practice" to keep your center of effort in the right spot.
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Old 08-11-2019, 19:38   #15
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Re: My removable inner stay(solent) installation and sail plan.

Quote:
This concerns me. This means the entire tension force of the stay is pulling directly on 8 aluminum rivets. I think in a blow the rivets will fail. Can you find the max recommended working load (tension) for the rivets you used? Then draw a free body diagram of the forces in play, and the answer will be clear. I'll do the math for you, if you can post the data. Working load of the rivets. Angle of stay at the mast. Size of the sail. That should be enough. FWIW, I'm a retired mech eng.

Another way to think of it...is the strength of those 8 rivets equal to the strength of the stay? I think not. Not even close.

Think of it this way...your arrangement has all the force pulling the rivets out, so all the force is on the little lip of the rivet inside the mast, times 8.

If you instead put 2 fittings, one on each side of the mast, so the force pulls sideways against the rivets (sheer), then the force is against the full thickness of the rivet shaft, which is much bigger and can hold more force. And you can double the number of rivets too.

A steel strap around the mast would be best. Nice and wide to distribute the load.
This exacty.



Monel or stainless might work OK Check Hanson Rivet and Supply.



If you ever have the mast down you might be able to backing plates inside the mast and through bolts.
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