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Old 18-06-2016, 10:41   #106
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Lots of good info in the above links, plus your replies here. Thanks for the in depth posts.

Our track is there to provide multiple attachment points. Forward & aft is needed as well as up & down and in & out to have complete control. One point is reasonable for one sail that used in certain windstrengths and that is not reefed (that is generally the case racing). Lots of points on a track is valuable for a host of sails and conditions.

Moving the block easily would be nice. That is where I was thinking of a soft shackle looped around the low friction ring for the fixed portion.

Clutches are planned on our bulwark. Crawling will be needed.

I still don't have my head around exactly where our rings will attached. We have a huge number of options with all the rings in the "tracks" (on deck and the cabin top) and the holes in the bulwark. I think it will be a case of experimenting.

Photos of your system would be very interesting to see.

SWL
I have my clutches on my bulwark and believe me -- if you can possibly find a way to avoid the crawling, you will be very happy. It is a significant PITA and a major flaw of my setup that I can't operate the clutches from the cockpit. If you want the winch and the weather is rough, it's just the last thing you want to be doing. Of course my case may be worse -- my beam is 16' and my center cockpit is fairly narrow, so quite a reach across the side decks. I believe you have an aft cockpit. But anyway -- something to think about.

As to multiple attachment points -- I understand now. I was thinking you could weld on as many padeyes as you need, but maybe a track makes better sense. Just don't use the track instead of cockpit-operable sheeting angle controls!

I agree with Evans that you should have it professionally designed, and not like I did mine -- an amateur tinkering. With a new boat, that is absolutely logical.
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Old 18-06-2016, 10:43   #107
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Dockhead, I have just made my first soft shackle for the season and I made an unsecured dyneema loop to help pretension it on the winch (I used a metre of 6mm Dyneema for the loop).

So I had a loop left to experiment with.
I did as Evans suggested and simply wound it around, doubling the loop up. This would have about 4 x the strength of the line ie around 15,600 kg (close to a single loop of 9mm that ends up around 800 mm long). It is 200mm long from tip to toe.

This took just a few minutes to make. I bound it very lightly with 3 mm line just to stop the ring escaping. As easy as doing up or undoing a corset .
I just buried the start, wound the end around the binding then around the ring itself, tied a few half hitches and buried the end. I left it loosish so the dyneema could equalise under load.

Dead easy, strong, short, no throat angle to worry about and the ring can't fall out :



Not nearly as gorgeous as Giancarlo's work, but easy on the eye and quick to make.

SWL
That looks perfect. I think we have our strop design. Will play with it tomorrow.
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Old 18-06-2016, 10:45   #108
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
nice . . .

but certainly not as exciting as undoing a corset
You're dating yourself, Evans . . .
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Old 18-06-2016, 10:48   #109
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Do you have a sail maker yet?

If you give any good sailmaker a copy of your rig/sail plan, they can give pretty precise advice on desired sheeting locations and range. And euro sail makers particularly will probably also be fully familiar with the low friction rig sheeting arrangements and options.

I find the sailmaker is often an underutilized resource in boat design and building details.
I love my sailmaker -- bless his heart -- but he was bloody useless on this question. I had him design my blade jib and really hoped that he would help me figure out the sheet leads, and he tried, but made no useful contribution.

I do agree that professionals should be used -- but I think maybe -- professional riggers? Maybe with racing experience?

Cowes is crawling with such guys -- I could probably scare up someone if SWL doesn't think the yard has got anyone suitable.
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Old 18-06-2016, 10:51   #110
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Pardon me if you've long ago been through this and know all this already.
I think I'll go practice making a bowline now.
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Old 18-06-2016, 10:59   #111
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Guys,

I love these discussions, but have you looked at the rated MBL of those friction rings compared to the strength of the dyneema? The dyneema generally is so much stronger than the eyes are that maximizing the dyneema strength is almost useless.

Long before the dyneema breaks something else in the system is going to snap anyway, like the deck hardware. Since there are other issues with stepping down in line size (abrasion, and uv damage) strength gains are illusionary at best. Remember the rings themselves are only anodized aluminium and are by far the weak point in the system.
I cannot agree with this. The ring in SWL's photos has a safe working load of 5 tonnes (11,000 pounds). This is more than the safe working load of my mega-expensive High Strength Size 3 Lewmar genoa car system originally installed on my boat (7,500 pounds). Where we discuss the strength of the dyneema ropework, we're talking about breaking strength. So it requires a pretty good strop to measure up to those rings, which are pretty bloody strong. And they need to be as the loads can be several tonnes.

As to the deck hardware -- it also needs to measure up. I just spent a couple grand putting in heavy welded pad-eyes, through bolted through the hull-deck joint. After ripping out a number of ordinary pad eyes.
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Old 18-06-2016, 11:56   #112
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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You're dating yourself, Evans . . .
https://www.victoriassecret.com/ling...LS&search=true

possibly still a thing

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I love my sailmaker -- bless his heart -- but he was bloody useless on this question.
hmmm . . . yea, I suppose the lofts differ in their capability and interest in this sort of thing. I have had great help from North and Quantum in the past on sheeting issues . . . but those two have tended to carry more 'design overhead' than other lofts, especially in their 'special projects' and 'mega yacht' units.
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Old 18-06-2016, 13:50   #113
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

This link has some good photos of VO70 leads: VO70 Il Mostro - Chicago Yacht Rigging Inc.Chicago Yacht Rigging Inc.
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Old 18-06-2016, 15:06   #114
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Thankfully these items take up little room or weight on board, as they are vital equipment .


Quote:
Originally Posted by iyamwhatiyam View Post
I think I'll go practice making a bowline now.
Not a joking matter .
With a love of knots and 30+ years experience tying bowlines (I swear I could do one standing on my head blindfolded) I have just found I am using the "cub scout" method and that there are much easier, more reliable ways to tie bowlines:
Bowline started with an overhand

Keep an open mind .

SWL
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Old 20-06-2016, 01:09   #115
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Dockhead, what type of dyneema are you using?

Products available currently vary greatly in strength. For the small quantities you are using it would be a good idea to purchase the good stuff.

eg Dynex Dux has about twice the strength of "standard" Dyneema SK75. It is also impregnated for UV and chafe resistance.
Dyneema SK 60/62 is still sold and this has only about a sixth of the strength of Dynex Dux.

Where you are struggling to design shorter strops, one solution is to go for a smaller diameter in the higher grade (6mm Dux is roughly equivalent in strength to 8mm standard SK75) enabling shorter tail buries and therefore a shorter strop.

SWL
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Old 20-06-2016, 02:03   #116
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My First Soft Shackle

some good stuff in this thread. all very similar to what's done in the hammock / ultra light backpacking world.
fwiw, I use Woopie slings in 7/16 amsteel to support my hammock, along with continuous loops and soft shackles in the same or smaller sizes
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Old 20-06-2016, 02:17   #117
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Dockhead, what type of dyneema are you using?

Products available currently vary greatly in strength. For the small quantities you are using it would be a good idea to purchase the good stuff.

eg Dynex Dux has about twice the strength of "standard" Dyneema SK75. It is also impregnated for UV and chafe resistance.
Dyneema SK 60/62 is still sold and this has only about a sixth of the strength of Dynex Dux.

Where you are struggling to design shorter strops, one solution is to go for a smaller diameter in the higher grade (6mm Dux is roughly equivalent in strength to 8mm standard SK75) enabling shorter tail buries and therefore a shorter strop.

SWL
I'm using SK78 like all my running rigging, either Marlow D12 or some German stuff my rope pusher gives me. It's strong enough. I like the German stuff because it is slightly tacky to the touch and holds together nicely. The previous stuff I was using was very dry, and turned soft (and very pleasant to the touch -- almost like cotton) after a few thousands miles of use, and the splices just fell apart if you pulled them without a load (will stitch next time I think).


On a completely different subject -- it occurred to me to mention that while it's great to have a variety of hard points for attaching your sheet lead and barber hauler strops (luxury of a metal boat), you should not stress out overly much about it, because the range of adjustment is much greater than with a track. If you sketch it you will see the angles and understand. So mounting position is not all that critical. I ended putting mine (and the position had to count, because of the cost of one through-bolted strong padeye on a plastic boat -- ouch!) somewhat forward of where the clew of the blade jib comes if you stretch it along the rail, and it works great. It doesn't need to pull exactly straight up and down (although obviously a sharp angle will increase the loads).

I am leading my sheets back to the regular car, by the way, led all the way forward. Your setup will be different if you don't have regular cars, but another strop or two with low friction rings will do the job.

I think more interesting is the question of how best to regulate them inboard and outboard. As I said, I am doing the main up and down regulation from the rail, with an inhauler to haul the sheet lead inboard when necessary. A better arrangement might be -- if you're starting from a clean sheet -- to have TWO leads, one way inboard and one on the rail, both of which have purchase and haul up and down. Then you regulate the inboard-outboard position by varying the force on them, rather than using an in-hauler. This will require one more control line on each side, but I really don't think this should be a problem since you don't need large cordage for it -- I'm using 10mm regular poly since the loads are small as a result of the purchase. You can lead them along the lifelines with twin stanchion blocks, to turning blocks on the quarters, and back to the cockpit. If you can find a place at the cockpit for dual clutches, then you should be in good shape. Haul or ease until you're happy, then close the clutches and stow the lines. Seems just about ideal to me. You will have two small lines on each side versus one larger line for towable cars, but for that you get 3D control of your sheet leads. Will be a lot cheaper than cars, too, and nothing expensive to break or wear out (I've got problems with my cars now which may cost me thousands to fix).

You are cutter rigged, right? Is your staysail self-tacking or do you have sheets on both sides? Either way you couldn't use my in-hauler system, because that sheet is only made available by taking the staysail out of commission, which is sort of ok when I'm using my blade, but would not be ok with the regular headsail. If you haven't made this decision yet -- self-tacking staysail really sucks for sail trim -- you have to barber haul the clew to have decent control. But there are a lot of pluses, including great simplification of the rigging -- nothing on the side decks at all, just a single sheet which is led to the cockpit roof. I will be interested to see what you come up with for your staysail rigging.
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Old 20-06-2016, 04:51   #118
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Since I'm in the rigging business in a small way, it may be inappropriate for me to post here (mods please remove if necessary). But there's a whole world beyond diamond- and button-knot soft shackles out there: it is soft shackles with toggles. Again, since I am manufacturing and selling them, it's inappropriate for me to post a link or website or photos, but I can be PM'd or found online. There's a few pics (more to come), etc. on my website, and lots of neat things yet to be invented or adapted to Dyneema.

Ben Zartman
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:10   #119
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm using SK78 like all my running rigging, either Marlow D12 or some German stuff my rope pusher gives me. It's strong enough. I like the German stuff because it is slightly tacky to the touch and holds together nicely. The previous stuff I was using was very dry, and turned soft (and very pleasant to the touch -- almost like cotton) after a few thousands miles of use, and the splices just fell apart if you pulled them without a load (will stitch next time I think).
Marlow D12 is probably perfectly OK for most of your needs, as a larger diameter than needed is often used given handling is better. I was just thinking of the situation where you need to use 9mm Marlow and have extra long strops to worry about. If doubling up thinner line does not appeal then using stronger dyneema would help shorten the strop.

9 mm Marlow D12 has an average break load of 6940 kg.
6 mm Dynex Dux has a breaking strain of 6800 kg.
If this appeals, Dux can be ordered online if your usual supplier does not stock it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
On a completely different subject -- it occurred to me to mention that while it's great to have a variety of hard points for attaching your sheet lead and barber hauler strops (luxury of a metal boat), you should not stress out overly much about it, because the range of adjustment is much greater than with a track. If you sketch it you will see the angles and understand. So mounting position is not all that critical.
We need to have holes that will accommodate a range of fore/aft positions (ie downward pull on the clew) for anything from a reefed yankee to a gennaker or even headsails we may decide we want in the future, such as the blade jib you are finding so useful in the Baltic. We don't need the 27 we have on the larger tracks , but once the track is there is is easy just to put lots of holes in.

I have marked in red the position of the tracks with holes and also the openings at the top of the bulwark close to the tracks:



This is the end of one of the tracks:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think more interesting is the question of how best to regulate them inboard and outboard. As I said, I am doing the main up and down regulation from the rail, with an inhauler to haul the sheet lead inboard when necessary. A better arrangement might be -- if you're starting from a clean sheet -- to have TWO leads, one way inboard and one on the rail, both of which have purchase and haul up and down. Then you regulate the inboard-outboard position by varying the force on them, rather than using an in-hauler. This will require one more control line on each side, but I really don't think this should be a problem since you don't need large cordage for it -- I'm using 10mm regular poly since the loads are small as a result of the purchase. You can lead them along the lifelines with twin stanchion blocks, to turning blocks on the quarters, and back to the cockpit. If you can find a place at the cockpit for dual clutches, then you should be in good shape. Haul or ease until you're happy, then close the clutches and stow the lines. Seems just about ideal to me. You will have two small lines on each side versus one larger line for towable cars, but for that you get 3D control of your sheet leads. Will be a lot cheaper than cars, too, and nothing expensive to break or wear out (I've got problems with my cars now which may cost me thousands to fix).
Our main headsail "track" is inboard, but there are lots of attachment options both inboard (the staysail track) and outboard (the holes at the top of the bulwark) for secondary controls (see above).
I like the idea of two controls, varying the amount of pull on either to control in/out .

I have had a look at the deckplan and there is room for clutches at the rear of the cockpit combing. Angles mean the line would need to be lead to a winch on the other side though. Not ideal. We will have to speak to KM about headsail control and what exactly they envisage, as reinforcement will be needed in the spots clutches go and this is an ideal time to be adding that easily. We had left the fine details of this to the experts at KM rather than trying to plan it ourselves.


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You are cutter rigged, right? Is your staysail self-tacking or do you have sheets on both sides? Either way you couldn't use my in-hauler system, because that sheet is only made available by taking the staysail out of commission, which is sort of ok when I'm using my blade, but would not be ok with the regular headsail. If you haven't made this decision yet -- self-tacking staysail really sucks for sail trim -- you have to barber haul the clew to have decent control. But there are a lot of pluses, including great simplification of the rigging -- nothing on the side decks at all, just a single sheet which is led to the cockpit roof. I will be interested to see what you come up with for your staysail rigging.
Yes, cutter rigged. The staysail will not be self tacking. I know this is makes tacking so much easier (our first boat was set up this way), but there drawbacks when the sails need to be freer, particularly sailing wing on wing (we would pole out the main headsail). Unlike you, the majority of our sailing will not be beating to windward .

SWL
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:48   #120
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Since I'm in the rigging business in a small way, it may be inappropriate for me to post here (mods please remove if necessary). But there's a whole world beyond diamond- and button-knot soft shackles out there: it is soft shackles with toggles. Again, since I am manufacturing and selling them, it's inappropriate for me to post a link or website or photos, but I can be PM'd or found online. There's a few pics (more to come), etc. on my website, and lots of neat things yet to be invented or adapted to Dyneema.

Ben Zartman
Hi Ben
I recall the discussion about toggles a couple of years ago. I hope your business has taken off well.

I don't see a link to your website in your profile. This would give you some exposure here. You can also start any threads you like regarding your toggle shackles in the Commercial section of CF and photos can be included there.

SWL
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